Prove there is a DEVIL

[targa911S]

Originally Posted by svandamme

mate, i hope that's not a real number
wouldn't want you to get into any legal "harrasement" trouble

Of course not. She IS the devil though.

[johnco]

here's photo proof

[frogger]

[slakjaw]

Originally Posted by john walker's workshop

right on my desk. keeps things in perspective.

That is a really cool devil statue! I want one!

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by Z-man

If by proof you mean scientific proof that satan exists, it is doubtful that you will be able to find proof that either God or satan exists beyond a shadow of doubt.

It is very much like trying to prove from a scientific view point that emotions exist. Indeed, one can see the by-product of happiness or sadness, and the chemical reactions that a human goes through when someone experiences such emotions, but one simply cannot scientifically explain why one gets sad or happy, angry or frightened -- from a scientific point of view. Why does a cuddly puppy bring a smile to someone's face? Why does a stroll down the beach with a loved one give you the warm fuzzies?

That is absolutley untrue. Any biologist or anthropogist will be happy to explain this you.

Originally Posted by Z-man

To ask someone to [scientifically] prove that God or satan exists is asking the impossible, since both God and satan "operate" in a spiritual realm, and not a scientific one. That said, often the physical, scientific realm and the spiritual realm intersect. The best example of this is when Jesus Christ walked on this earth. Other examples are unexplained phenomena (miracles), and demon possession. When a person starts talking in a language that he or she has never been exposed to or studied, how can you explain that scientifically? There are documented cases where this occurred and some of these cases were attributted to demonic possesion.

Every sentence of this paragraph is completely unsupportable superstitious nonsense. How can a grown up buy into this nonsense?

Originally Posted by Z-man

Based on what I've been taught, satan is the ruler of this earth, for now.

Mmmm.

Originally Posted by Z-man

And there is much physical evidence that this is true: war, violence, evil are escalating exponentially.

What physical evidence? Exponentially, you say? There are more people on this planet than there have ever been in history. What do you mean "exponentially"? Do you have an evil-o-meter? How do you know this evidence is "True"? Could it not be just your belief?

Originally Posted by Z-man

So how does that jive with the belief that we are constantly evolving and improving? If we are always getting better, then isn't it a contradiction that there is more and more evil in the world? Thus, although it is a "negative proof," I would say the fact that throughout modern history, it can be seen that evil has increased instead of decreased, which is in contraction to how evolution is supposed to work. Thus, there must be some driving force behind this evil, which is satan.

-Z-man.

No, belief in satan is the driving force behind evil.

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by Z-man

Ok, can you disprove that evil has increased throughout history?

Maybe fact is too absolute a word, but the general consensus seems to side with that notion...

-Z

This religion all over. You make the unsupportable claim, then demand that that it be disproved.

Yes, "fact" is a rather absolute word. Its lucky your Evil-o-meter is working overtime to support that concensus.

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by stuartj

Every sentence of this paragraph is completely unsupportable superstitious nonsense. How can a grown up buy into this nonsense?

That is exactly my point -- you call it superstitious, while I call it spiritual. But no matter how you call it, you cannot prove it from a scientific perspective.

And while you feel that a biologist can explain emotions and such, do you really believe that science has an explanation for everything?

-Z-man.

[kstar]

Originally Posted by Z-man

That is exactly my point -- you call it superstitious, while I call it spiritual. But no matter how you call it, you cannot prove it from a scientific perspective.

And while you feel that a biologist can explain emotions and such, do you really believe that science has an explanation for everything?

-Z-man.

This belief can certainly be called spiritual. It is not Stuart's or my or any else's obligation to disprove your extraordinary claims, it is your obligation to prove them or simply admit your belief is based upon "faith".

You cannot disprove the Great Teapot(s), but that does not prove Their existence.

And, science has a much better track record of explaining stuff than any of the world's religions.

FWIW.

Best,

Kurt

P.S.: I guess it was only a matter of time before this parallel of the "God" thread materialized.

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by kstarnes

This belief can certainly be called spiritual. It is not Stuart's or my or any else's obligation to disprove your extraordinary claims, it is your obligation to prove them or simply admit your belief is based upon "faith".

Yes indeed. Though I didn't state that explicitly in this thread -- my belief is indeed based upon faith. It has to be. My definition of faith is simple: it is the belief in something which cannot be seen, cannot be scientifically proven, or cannot be physically explained.

You cannot disprove the Great Teapot(s), but that does not prove Their existence.

However, your logic also dictates this: you cannot scientifically prove that God exists, but that does not prove the non-existence of God.
And thus we reach an impass where it is simply best to agree to disagree on such matters.

And, science has a much better track record of explaining stuff than any of the world's religions.

Sure -- since most of the "stuff" the science can explain is part of the physical realm.

P.S.: I guess it was only a matter of time before this parallel of the "God" thread materialized.

That's cause they both operate in the same realm -- not unlike two opposing chess pieces on the same checkered board...

It's been a good discussion thus far...
-Zoltan.

[austin552]

[johnco]

so satan is like an out of control assistant manager for god? he does the dirty work or takes the blame for evil deeds? can't understand why wouldn't god just smite him, remove him so he doesn't inspire any more evil? maybe he could also smite that nasty mother nature b!tch that causes so much death and destruction. she's way out of control. and those pesky demons always going around possessing innocent people. making them speak in different tongues and moving furniture around. smite them all and get things under control once again

[kstar]

Originally Posted by Z-man

. . . snip . . .

However, your logic also dictates this: you cannot scientifically prove that God exists, but that does not prove the non-existence of God.
And thus we reach an impass where it is simply best to agree to disagree on such matters.

. . . snip . . .

It's been a good discussion thus far...
-Zoltan.

Agreed. It cannot be proven that God does not exist as it cannot be proven that celestial teapots do not exist. This is why I do not 100% rule out the existence of some type of super-evolved god-like entity, although my opinion is that it is highly unlikely.

It has been a good discussion and you seem to be a reasonable human.

Best,

Kurt

[stuartj]

[QUOTE=Z-man;3502495]Yes indeed. Though I didn't state that explicitly in this thread -- my belief is indeed based upon faith. It has to be. My definition of faith is simple: it is the belief in something which cannot be seen, cannot be scientifically proven, or cannot be physically explained.

However, your logic also dictates this: you cannot scientifically prove that God exists, but that does not prove the non-existence of God.
And thus we reach an impass where it is simply best to agree to disagree on such matters.

QUOTE]

Ofcourse its based on faith. Thats all its based on, and all it can be based on. Faith is ability to believe that for which there is no material support or evidence. The "god" thread has raged for 300+ pages to get to that conclusion.

Delusion.

[frogger]

Originally Posted by Z-man

However, your logic also dictates this: you cannot scientifically prove that God exists, but that does not prove the non-existence of God.
And thus we reach an impass where it is simply best to agree to disagree on such matters.



It's been a good discussion thus far...
-Zoltan.

Exactly, and yes, it has.

[dewolf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RV46fsmx6E

[cgarr]

Just look around you and continue to pray the following daily: Lets again make him captive in the abyss:

Most glorious Prince of the Heavenly armies, Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in our battle against principalities and powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, against the spirit of wickedness in the high places. Come to the assistance of men whom God has created to His likeness and whom He has redeemed at a great price from the tyranny of the devil. The Holy Church venerates thee as her guardian and protector; to thee the Lord has entrusted the souls of the redeemed to be led into Heaven. Pray therefore the God of Peace to crush Satan beneath our feet, that he may no longer retain men captive and do injury to the Church. Offer our prayers to the most High, that without delay they may draw His mercy down upon us. Take hold of the dragon, that old serpent, which is the devil and Satan, bind him, and cast him into the bottomless pit so that he should no more seduce the nations. Amen.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by snowman

The prove there is a God thread has gone flat. Now is the time to PROVE there is a DEVIL. For without a DEVIL there cannot be a GOD.

More to point, there is no Devil without God. God defined the abstract concept of sin when he punished Adam and Eve for eating the proverbial apple. If God had said something like, "Jeez guys, I told you not eat the god damn fruit, now go and play with the zebras," we wouldn't have such a sucky existence.

You could logically argue that God hates Man using the Bible. It wasn't the Devil who introduced temptation, it was God. God created the groundrules for Man's existence. Did he really need to plant the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden? And let's say he did. OK, first of all, trees bear fruit for one reason: reproduction. if I go to Home Depot, I'm pretty sure they don't have Trees of Knowledge sitting next to the Phycas.

Second, couldn't it have bore pine cones or something similar? Who would be tempted to eat a pine cone?

Third, God doesn't know about fences? that would have kept A&E out.

Lastly, why would an all-knowing God create something so innocently fallible as Man and then place rules around his existence KNOWING he's going to FAIL and be damned for the rest of eternity. does that make any sense at all?

Would you tell your kid not to eat the cookies, nothing more than that, and when he does, his punishment is to be beaten and shouted at every day for the rest of his life? Should this kid still love his parents? Should he ask repeatedly for absolution day after day as the beatings and shouting continue? And even when he BBQ's some chicken for his parents, the fragrance of which is pleasing to them, they still beat him mercilessly. At best they might help him beat up some other kids on the block, maybe promise him ownership of the treehouse in the next door neighbor's yard.

loving God.

[cashflyer]

Everyone must choose between right and wrong, every day. A&E had to choose between right (obedience of God's rules) and wrong (disobedience). They chose poorly. The repercussion of their choice was pain and suffering.

When your child is disobedient, do you not punish the child so that they may choose to be obedient? If you commit a crime, do you not expect that they penalty will involve pain and/or suffering?

[Shaun @ Tru6]

of course you punish your child.

but you have to ask yourself why God created the concept of sin, AFTER creating A&E, and therefore punishment.

[70SATMan]

Since God created the Devil and since it has been effectively proven that God exists then the Devil exists.

I blame God for evil. He created that too. Buck's gotta stop somewhere.