Prove there is a DEVIL

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

of course you punish your child.

but you have to ask yourself why God created the concept of sin, AFTER creating A&E, and therefore punishment.

** WARNING -- Soapbox moment coming up... **

That question is one that many a religious scholar has grappled with.

My wife struggles with that concept probably the most in terms of her faith. Why couldn't God just have created us without the propensity to sin? Why all this apple in Eden, need to send a redeemer, fallible mankind stuff?!?!? Life would sure be alot easier without all that crap...

In order for Adam and Eve to understand their relationshop to God, they had to understand the concept of obedience. If there were no limits imposed by God upon Adam and Eve, they would not have understood that concept nor would they have understood their relationship with God.

Look at it this way -- ever see a spoiled brat and how that brat behaves with his parents? Everything is allowed for this brat, and he has no respect for his parents or other people. Compare that with a child who is nutured and properly disciplined -- and you will see such a child has a far better outlook in life, and a better chance of succeeding as well. Such a child won't be perfect, but will better understand what is right and wrong, and learning that concept sooner in life can make a huge difference. (Yes, I am generalizing, and there are exceptions to the rule, but the concept is the same for the most part.)

While God did create man in his image, He didn't create them perfect. Why? I think God didn't want mankind to simply worship him without mind -- He wanted mankind to have a choice - to worship Him and follow His ways, or to abandon Him. That choice makes our relationship with God more dynamic. The option is ours to follow Him or not.

What does that give God? Well, without that freedom He gave us, we might as well all be robots. You can't really have much of a dynamic relationship with a robot... Despite man's fallibility, he also has the ability to worship God, and go against his human (sinful) nature and do the right thing. And that, it a nutshell, is what God get's jazzed up about -- when we in our limited nature are able to choose to do right and follow Him. Without the apple and the devil, this would not be.

Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now...

-Z-man.

[cashflyer]

I don't believe he created the concept of sin after the creation of A&E. Sin is simply disobedience of God's rules.
Although this will sound like a Clinton defense, did God create disobedience and obedience? No. Disobedience is a choice, and it was the choice that Eve and Adam both made.

A&E knew there would be repercussions for their disobedience. Genesis 3:3, "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die."

Some would argue that an all knowing and omnipotent God would have foreseen the outcome. Maybe so. Maybe the tree of knowledge was a test that A&E failed.

Maybe the story of A&E is simply a story, meant only to illustrate to the faithful that there are choices of good and evil to be made in life, and that choosing evil will bring pain and suffering.

Matthew 13:10
"The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has, will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving."

[cashflyer]

Originally Posted by Z-man

You can't really have much of a dynamic relationship with a robot...

Speak for yourself.


Mark 4:15-20
Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.

Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—thirty, sixty or even a hundred times what was sown."

[Shaun @ Tru6]

All this just begs the question: why would God create something knowing he has to punish it? Why introduce punishment into the equation? Additionally, why does God feel a need for worship from completely imperfect beings of his own creation? Why does God REQUIRE a relationship?

[cashflyer]

He's lonely.

[kang]

Originally Posted by Z-man

** WARNING -- Soapbox moment coming up... **

That question is one that many a religious scholar has grappled with.

My wife struggles with that concept probably the most in terms of her faith. Why couldn't God just have created us without the propensity to sin? Why all this apple in Eden, need to send a redeemer, fallible mankind stuff?!?!? Life would sure be alot easier without all that crap...

In order for Adam and Eve to understand their relationshop to God, they had to understand the concept of obedience. If there were no limits imposed by God upon Adam and Eve, they would not have understood that concept nor would they have understood their relationship with God.

Look at it this way -- ever see a spoiled brat and how that brat behaves with his parents? Everything is allowed for this brat, and he has no respect for his parents or other people. Compare that with a child who is nutured and properly disciplined -- and you will see such a child has a far better outlook in life, and a better chance of succeeding as well. Such a child won't be perfect, but will better understand what is right and wrong, and learning that concept sooner in life can make a huge difference. (Yes, I am generalizing, and there are exceptions to the rule, but the concept is the same for the most part.)

While God did create man in his image, He didn't create them perfect. Why? I think God didn't want mankind to simply worship him without mind -- He wanted mankind to have a choice - to worship Him and follow His ways, or to abandon Him. That choice makes our relationship with God more dynamic. The option is ours to follow Him or not.

What does that give God? Well, without that freedom He gave us, we might as well all be robots. You can't really have much of a dynamic relationship with a robot... Despite man's fallibility, he also has the ability to worship God, and go against his human (sinful) nature and do the right thing. And that, it a nutshell, is what God get's jazzed up about -- when we in our limited nature are able to choose to do right and follow Him. Without the apple and the devil, this would not be.

Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now...

-Z-man.

This just seems so contrived.

I thought religion was supposed to answer the why questions, but here we see someone struggling with a why question. The answer comes in a contrived parallel to something real. I guess that means that no one knows what god wants. They see something in modern life that they think might apply to god and create a parallel. There is no real reason to think that what applies to modern life applies to this god, it just seems to fit.

It all starts with a presumption that god exists, that he will punish us, that we need to obey, that we need to glorify him, etc, etc. Why presume these things? The bible may say some of them, but so what? It was written by men. It is just opinion that it is the “word of god.” Also, the sacred texts of other religions say other things.

If you don’t have a god, if you don’t think that the bible is the word of this god, then you don’t need to contrive parallels with modern life to try to explain the hard questions about your god and your religion.

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by kang

This just seems so contrived.

I thought religion was supposed to answer the why questions, but here we see someone struggling with a why question. The answer comes in a contrived parallel to something real. I guess that means that no one knows what god wants. They see something in modern life that they think might apply to god and create a parallel. There is no real reason to think that what applies to modern life applies to this god, it just seems to fit.

It all starts with a presumption that god exists, that he will punish us, that we need to obey, that we need to glorify him, etc, etc. Why presume these things? The bible may say some of them, but so what? It was written by men. It is just opinion that it is the “word of god.” Also, the sacred texts of other religions say other things.

If you don’t have a god, if you don’t think that the bible is the word of this god, then you don’t need to contrive parallels with modern life to try to explain the hard questions about your god and your religion.

I do not think it is a coincidence that the parent-child relationship is not unlike the relationship man has with God. Actually, I think the relationship between a child and a parent is molded after God's relationship to mankind.

So the parallel isn't just based on similarity, but rather in the idea that there is a piece of God within us.

-Zoltan.

[frogger]

Originally Posted by Z-man

I do not think it is a coincidence that the parent-child relationship is not unlike the relationship man has with God. Actually, I think the relationship between a child and a parent is molded after God's relationship to mankind.

So the parallel isn't just based on similarity, but rather in the idea that there is a piece of God within us.

-Zoltan.

Another way to look at this is when man created the concept of god, man modeled his relationship with god on man's parent/child relationship. This is more likely.

[72doug2,2S]

Originally Posted by frogger

Another way to look at this is when man created the concept of god, man modeled his relationship with god on man's parent/child relationship. This is more likely.

Foggy, have you been listening to Jethro Tull lyrics again?

[frogger]

Not for many years. What are we doing here when we should be sparring on that other thread?

[RickM]

John Walker, Where can I get one of those statues? Too cool. (Let me guess...one of a kind)

[RickM]

Someone mention something about Women and the Devil?

How many guys can say they never felt like this poor fella at one time or another

[snowman]

The liberals treatment of their children reflects their lack of belief in a God. Liberals so not punish their children, for anything. They know no bounds, no sense of justice, their children can do NO wrong. Thats why the liberal belief ( a total lack of any values whatsoever) is trashing our system.

liberal s have NO sense of justice, no sense of right or wrong. If it feels good, then do it.

Liberals have no guidance. They are deficient in some kind of basic human morality, they are defective humans. How do we deal with them? We must be firm and present our moral values in a concrete way. Adhere to the values or be banned from normal human activity. Don't like it? Be prepared for the wrath of values vs non values. You will lose. Harsh? Thats human nature. NO one can prevent HUMAN NATURE from going its course.

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by snowman

The liberals treatment of their children reflects their lack of belief in a God. blah blah .

Snowman, did you create your own thread so you can rant on an unlimited basis?

[nota]

two devil storys are A+E snake story and JOB

in A+E the tree is one of TWO TREES
the second tree is eternal life

''3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?''

3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.''

NOW WHO LIES HERE GOD OR THE DEVIL [SNAKE]
they didNOT DIE!!!!! on eatting the fruit

''3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:''

BTW
''So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

OK if man had eternal life befor the fall
why does god need a tree

one of US?????????

and where is the Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. as that alone would be proof of this BS

now in job, god and the devil are on buddy betting terms
standing together watching poor job suffer

and why is this call monothiesum if there are 3 gods and a devil too
thats 4 by my count or quadthiesum or at least dualtheisum if you buy the 3=1 riff

[johnco]

ever notice how god and the devil never appear in public at the same time, same place? could they be working together? could they be one and the same playing this nasty game.. hmmmmm, makes you wonder. stay tuned as Geraldo Riviera goes undercover as an altar boy investigating the pay me now or pay him later protection racket

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by Z-man

That is exactly my point -- you call it superstitious, while I call it spiritual. But no matter how you call it, you cannot prove it from a scientific perspective.

And while you feel that a biologist can explain emotions and such, do you really believe that science has an explanation for everything?

-Z-man.

I don't need prove or disprove it. You do. And as you most likely cant, we are left with the more plausible explanation that the things you believe are superstitions.

Or if you mean, can it be explained why you might believe such things, there science on this, yes. I refer you to the "god" thread where some of it has been discussed.

Does science have an explanation for everything? No. Does this mean things are forever unexplainable? No.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

There is no "god", there is no "devil", there is no "heaven" and there is no "hell". All of the above are creations of man to explain circumstances and events they can't wrap their feeble minds around, or to stroke their own egos with a sense of "greater purpose" or to give the weak-minded a "crutch" to rely on.

Seems pretty simple/straightforward to me.

If someone else needs a crutch to get through life, fine. I don't.

[1fastredsc]

How do i know there's a devil, because after doing some work on my vw this past week i'm convinced he designed it.

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by johnco

ever notice how god and the devil never appear in public at the same time, same place? could they be working together? could they be one and the same playing this nasty game.. hmmmmm, makes you wonder. stay tuned as Geraldo Riviera goes undercover as an altar boy investigating the pay me now or pay him later protection racket

When satan tempted Christ is an example of God and the devil appearing together.

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

There is no "god", there is no "devil", there is no "heaven" and there is no "hell". All of the above are creations of man to explain circumstances and events they can't wrap their feeble minds around, or to stroke their own egos with a sense of "greater purpose" or to give the weak-minded a "crutch" to rely on.

Seems pretty simple/straightforward to me.

If someone else needs a crutch to get through life, fine. I don't.

Perhaps your post should have been prefaced with "I BELIEVE there is no "god"..." since it hasn't been established whether or not God exists...


-Z