Hwy Expansion - My Experience at the TxDOT Proposal Meeting

[M.D. Holloway]

I'm on our towns Zoning commission. TxDOT made a pitch to the commissions explaining the I35 expansion and how it was going to effect our town. They had a Q&A. At first the questions from various board members was rather benign.

I sat there and thought that if I was going to spend any more time here and not with my family I better make it worth while. I decided to mix it up some.

Me: Sir, thank you for presenting tonight. My first question... why are you looking to expand?

Him (and his staff): to relieve the congestion of course.

Me: OK, how do you know. You are looking to spend almost $700 million to go from 3 lanes to 6 so what do you actually think will occur? What will be the expected reduction in transit time?

Someone on his staff: Currently the congestion is rated a C we expected it to become a B.

Me: So in other words my commute to Dallas or to Denton should be reduced by 10 to 20 minutes because of less congestion. Sorry sir but I am not so certain that will relieve congestion. I guess we will see.

A few other questions were asked then...

Me: Sir, you stated that 65 homes and 75 businesses will be displaced. Have these folks been notified concerning this?

Him: We will have this available on the internet.

Me: Sir, with all due respect, I am not confident that folks regularly check your site for information or updates. What provisions have been put in place or will be?

Him (and staff): We will send out letters.

a few more questions were asked...

Me: Sir, in your presentation you state that the project is expected to be complete in 2012. Does the $685 million take into account increased material and labor costs?

Staff member: There is a 5% allowance built it.

Me: That seems a little low considering the rising costs of concrete and labor.


I don't know if this expansion is a good thing or a bad thing. I am sure it will happen regardless of what a knucklehead like me has to say.

The thing that got me a bit steamed was the fact that these guys are spending money - our money and the overall ramifications of this project are not understood.

What about the environmenal impact? More lanes means more traffic. Dallas has poor air quality to begin with. And what about the increased development of apartments, house and so forth - all to accomidate all the folks who will move in because the business can grow more because of the increased throughfare.

Maybe I am being short-sighted but for $700 million, could outlying areas be developed to be more self-sustaining than to engage in urban sprawl?

So, does expending a highway really make sense?

[legion]

A friend of mine is a civil engineer.

Once, he was accosted during this same kind of meeting by a women who wanted to know what they planned to do to limit dihydrogen monoxide exposure to the community.

[legion]

BTW, I've never seen any sort of publicly-funded project that did not exceed its initial budget by at least 100%. Your project will cost closer to 1.4 billion. Mark my words.

[ChrisBennet]

I went to a meeting like that once (it was for a new high school stadium). I concluded that these meetings are often just done to make it look like they want input when in fact they have already decided what they are going to do.
-Chris

[968rz]

A couple thoughts?
Will adding more lanes reduce traffic or just make room for more cars?
How many of the folks that avoid the x-way now will use it when it's larger only to bring the traffic back to where it is now?
These are questions that were asked when they wanted to widen our x-way through town (they did not).

Txdot will roll over you and do whatever they deem right. They consider meetings like yours only a courtesy. The 6 lanes is a done deal - I speak from experience.

[M.D. Holloway]

Originally Posted by 968rz

A couple thoughts?
Will adding more lanes reduce traffic or just make room for more cars?
How many of the folks that avoid the x-way now will use it when it's larger only to bring the traffic back to where it is now?
These are questions that were asked when they wanted to widen our x-way through town (they did not).

My point as well.

[M.D. Holloway]

Originally Posted by Mark Wilson

Txdot will roll over you and do whatever they deem right. They consider meetings like yours only a courtesy. The 6 lanes is a done deal - I speak from experience.

Agree. I really don't even know why I even went or said anything. Sometimes it really does seem hopeless - like going into the ring with an undefeated heavyweight. At least a few good jabs in makes you feel better.

Something to think about while your on the mat bleeding from your ears...


Mark - good luck with that Trinity River madness.

[p911dad]

Sounds like a fairly ambitious schedule(2012 is only 4 years away). The next step is for TxDOT to hire a consultant and start a preliminary design with several alternates. Then, they will start having public hearings to satisfy Tx law and the FHWA(federal highway admin.), probably at least 2. They will gather public comment and work that into a DEIS(draft environment impact statement) and then let the public have final comment on the selection of the final alternate. This will include a chapter on the right of way needed and that there is plenty of replacement properties to move the affected people into. Normally, the consultant makes several of the alternates somewhat outrageous(going though the only park, etc) so that the public settles for the actual "real" alternate the DOT has already quietly advanced as the "favored" or "preferred" alternate(and probably makes the most sense in a practical, engineering sort of way). The next step is to present the findings in the form of the FEIS(final envir. impact statement) to the FHWA and other control agencies(like Corps of Engineers) for the FHWA's Record of Decision. The findings get published in the record(local newspaper). At that point, the DOT can start buying land and enter final design phase, with construction to follow in 12 or so months. That is roughly how you get a federal aid highway built in the US of A. The DOT is very good at this and are normally are the only experts in this process at the table, so they have a great advantage over the locals in running the show.
At the present point in the process(meaning today), you guys should hardball them, and get whatever promises you can to make the design work for your town. Since they probably are seeking consensus with you, you have leverage at this point. Their position hasn't crystalized yet, and you have time to make a difference(but you ain't gonna stop them).
The cost estimate at this point is based on historic costs of building X lane miles through your territory. It ain't real, just a number to get it started and get an allocation from the Capitol for this particular project.
Expanding the highway makes sense in the big plan sort of way, as in completing the plan, and Texas is big on road construction vs mass transit and has been that way historically. But an interstate will change you local patterns forever in some good ways and some no so good ways. If I were on your planning board I would study this very carefully and maybe hire an expert of my own to be a counterweight and verify the DOT plan as a good one.

[M.D. Holloway]

35 is gonna go from Mexico to Canada - 6 to 12 lanes. Hello NAFTA...

[mattdavis11]

Does that stretch of highway need some type of relief? Yes, absolutely. Is it going to worsen things during the construction? Most definitely. Can your town persuade TxDot to make the transition on your community as painless as possible? Depends on who they hire to negotiate with TxDot.

The environment will have to suffer, but TxDot will take the necessary measures to protect your water sources. I expect that aspect to be limited since most cities pipe in water.

It's only a matter of time before the surrounding communities like Argyle and Bartonville are full blown. By full blown, I mean as large as Highland Village. The IH35 corridor will be surrounded by business and apartments. Sleepy towns that are 25 minutes from Dallas or Fort Worth will be no more in 10 years.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Agreed. "Public comment" is nothing more than a "blowing off steam" session. It seldom if ever impacts the outcome.

The only thing that will stop the project is if they can't float the bonds to pay for it.

[TerryBPP]

I am pretty familiar with these types of meetings as I make a presentation once or twice a week. There is always some person with a IQ of 15 that makes comments that impede the process just to feel like they are important. I love putting them in there place.

I know you're a bright guy lube, your questions are pretty easy if I was up there you would have gotten more satisfying answers. Even if I was bull$hitting.

If I was you I would have asked why they feel a non failing road (C) should warrant a 100% increase in traffic. If the trips are not there now and its not failing its pretty hard to warrant they kind of expenditure. I'm sure you have failing road (F) that needs the funds.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Does your community (or others on the corridor) have slow-growth or no-growth policies in place?

[TerryBPP]

I had a public hearing to argue the height of a 200 unit lake front condo a few weeks ago. The location is directly across from a 300 acre industrial park. Not the greatest area. There is 20 unit condo adjacent to the project that is run down.

When I give the presentation there is a out cry as to how the construction is going to pollute the lake and make it so that the existing condo "renters" cannot boat or swim in the lake any longer. The complainants get one of the board members on there side.

I retort with the normal BS about pollution control devices (silt fence, etc.). They don't bite.

I get an idea! I ask for a continuance and decide to have the water tested for pollutants. The test comes back and the lake is so polluted that roaches couldn't live in it.

We go back to hearing and there is double the amount of complainants with slide shows of them boating and swimming. I sit and smile.

When I give me presentation you should have seen the horror on the faces.

Needless to say we got the 80' building height and offered to help clean up the lake.

[stomachmonkey]

I just moved into the area. 1st trip to the office from my rental in Lantanna, right down the road from Mike.

The last thing the area needs is more roads.

What they need down here is teach people how to drive their cars.

Everyone drives like my grandmother.

I was going to go for a carry permit down here but now I'm not sure.

I don't think I could make it a week before I started "thinning the herd".

[mattdavis11]

Even if a wrench is thrown in the plan, TxDot will go toll on their a$$ and build it anyway. Money doesn't matter, private investors will be more than happy to fund the road.

[TerryBPP]

Originally Posted by mattdavis11

Even if a wrench is thrown in the plan, TxDot will go toll on their a$$ and build it anyway. Money doesn't matter, private investors will be more than happy to fund the road.

Why would a private investor fund a road that is not failing? The only benefit to private developers would be to allow them to build whatever they need to build without failing the road. C is along way from F in highway terms.

[Rikao4]

TXDOT improvement for SA, I used to get home in 20 minutes with traffic..so they improved this piece of I-35 N......410 funnels into 35 used to be 2 lanes..now 1> improvement add a funnel to the first one= 3 lanes of Highway going to 1 > all 3 lanes try to enter I-35 ( less than 500 yards for this event)...oh lets add and exit for the folks on 35.
16 miles = 1 hour or more..rain...forget it.
folks who design this crap don't drive, if they do it's a Yugo.
You can shut this city down using 6 cars...
Rika

[chuckr]

I lived in Dallas in the late 70's when they finished 635. It was NO traffic on it anywhere !
I remember saying to myself, why would they build this way out here, there is nothing here.
I also remember when they opened the Tollway, it ran from 635 to downtown for 25 cents.
I called it haul-ass alley, no police anywhere, no traffic either ! now look at these roads...
big parking lots that kinda move. By the time they finish adding the lanes, they too will be
useless as fas as speeding up your commute time !