How many engineers?

[1fastredsc]

So this semester along with my other classes, i'm in an ME senior seminar class. It's a 1 credit course that meets once a week for one hour to listen to engineers in the field give lectures and also get general guidance as to our direction after we graduate. Now i have this class on fridays, and have had all weekend including holiday to think about the subject discussed, but then i thought i'd open a thread for discussion on the topic.

Here is the deal, the head of our department teaches the course and for our first class he gave his own lecture with advice, outlook, and general opinion based on his personal career. Part of his outlook included talking about free trade and the kinds of things that we need to be aware of as a result. He presented a graph of different nations and the number of degreed engineers in their population from the 80's to 2002. We were hovering around 70k constantly, and surprisingly enough japan being the small country that they are, 130M people, they had slightly more engineers. But that isn't the disturbing part, the disturbing part is that china from the 90's has sky rocketed with degreed engineers. So much so that at the end of the graph in 2002 they are in the 200k range with a steep upward slope. Then he tells us that as of last year, 2007, they are estimated at having 500k degreed engineers. So, even considering that they have a larger population of 1.3B people, which is a little more than 4 times our population of 300M, they still have a higher percentage of engineers per population. At there 500k and our 70k, they stand a little over 7 times the number of engineers.

This brings his obvious concern as an educator of why our numbers haven't increased steadily with population growth. He said what's even worse is that there are more people with degrees in sports journalism than engineering (no offense to anyone in sports journalism, just used for reference), and when i say engineering i'm talking about all the different disciplines added up into one (ME, ChemE, EE, CE, etc). He said that every semester they try new things to keep there incoming students (trying different professors, books, methods, etc), but a lot of them end up leaving for other departments after a semester or two. So the resulting question is, why don't we have more degreed engineers? Why are kids leaving and going to other departments? Are scientists, lawyers, MDs, and other "difficult" fields seeing the same trend or are they growing steadily with the population? And lastly, if there are more degreed engineers there, then their is a higher supply of labor and therefore they can be paid much less. So will engineering jobs be possibly next on the outsourcing chopping block?

[old man neri]

Before you start panicking I would look more closely into what China considers an "engineer". Wouldn't surprise me if they consider technologists or technicians "engineers"

[Komenda Fan]

I think that in NA, we don't have the same appreciation of technologies, be it engineers or skilled trades people, that some other countries do, be it Japan, Germany, or emerging markets such as India and China. I think this has been a detriment to our continent.

Having said that, I hold a degree in Civil Engineering with a specialist in Structural Engineering, and yet now I'm an elementary school teacher...

[Porsche_monkey]

1. Engineers are underappreciated. There is no 'aura' about being one. Think about Dilbert.

2. Engineers make good but not great money, typically less than doctors and lawyers. And lots of 'professions' that require less (or no) education make more money than engineers. Real Estate, marketing, etc, etc.

3. Becoming and Engineer is not easy. Lots of people simply don't have the math skills.

And I wouldn't look down my nose at any Chinese Engineering degrees. I have had a couple work for me, and they were in no way inferior to the 'domestic' version.

[old man neri]

Originally Posted by PBH

And I wouldn't look down my nose at any Chinese Engineering degrees. I have had a couple work for me, and they were in no way inferior to the 'domestic' version.

I am in no way looking down at them. I am just stating that in their tally they may have lumped them all together. That's all.

I figure it's like with everything else, there are some good ones and some bad ones, there are some good schools and some not so good schools. I worked with an engineer from china.....he was...ummm....'special'. Then again I also went to school with future engineers as well, some of them were....'special' as well.

[onewhippedpuppy]

PBH nailed it, becoming an engineer is not easy. Really, that's the catch, because most college students just don't want to work that hard. Of course, the guys I know that partied through college while in business school are regretting that decision now. Assistant manager of a retail store isn't the most rewarding job on earth.

There's no emphasis on math and science anymore, and I blame the continual "dumbing-down" of our society. There's a big chunk of engineers that came from the baby boomer generation, think of the heros they had back then. Astronauts and the space program engineers were national heroes, there was a real focus on innovation and invention as we tried to out-do Russia. 50 years later, we have a nation of fat reality show addicts that care more about Britney Spears than space exploration. Kids would rather play XBox than with Legos. Sure it's a broad, sweeping generalization, but in many cases it's true.

My biggest hope is for, ironically, TV inspiring our next generation of engineers. The success of shows like Myth Busters is promising, because it shows that math and science can be interesting. Maybe it's not the message, maybe it's the medium. Other programs that promote math, science, and creativity at an early age, especially in schools, are essential if we want to maintain our status as a world superpower.

[ckissick]

Most engineering jobs require a license in the state the job is in. As for civil engineering, a license is definately required . And you can't really do the job properly without visiting the job site. I don't see how civil engineering can be outsourced.

Many CEs are here from China and other countries, though. I guess that's a form of outsourcing. But if the US is not turning out enough engineers, its our fault. Not their's.

[Porsche_monkey]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

There's no emphasis on math and science anymore, and I blame the continual "dumbing-down" of our society.

Bingo. My youngest son (grade 9) refuses to believe that a portion of society can not calculate 30% of $15.00 in their head. He is wrong, lots of people can't do it.

I consider making change in a store a minimum mathematical standard for society. It is painful to see how many people do not have this skill. And do not see why it matters.

It's fine to say that civil engineering can't be outsourced, to an extent that is true. But designs and drawings can be. And as automotive manufacturing slowly disappears, whats left? Software? (India) Law? (outsourced to India already) Clothing (long gone) Banking & Insurance? (that's next) Farming? (still alive) Fast Food seems like a good field.

[Porsche_monkey]

Originally Posted by old man neri

I am in no way looking down at them. I am just stating that in their tally they may have lumped them all together. That's all.

I was unclear in my response, I did not mean you in particular. There is a general feeling amongst my co-workers that China supplies second class engineers, and I'm not sure that is true.

And I would agree, Engineers, Technicians, and Technologists are likely all lumped into one category. I hope.

[einreb]

Where's Souk's input?

A couple of random points...

The dot com boom in the late 90's pulled a lot of would-be engineers into computer science because the money was much better.

When I graduated with a BSME ('94), there was a definite pecking order of degrees and salaries. Chem E (toughest and highest paying), Mech/Elec (second and next best paying), Civil (next toughest and paid a little less). If you couldnt hack those, you switched to computer science. Fast forward 5 years and some basic HTML skills would get you twice the money.

I think that engineers have done a horrible job of self policing and promoting it as a 'profession'. There used to be a lot more of them so they would be used for crappy tasks that a non-engineer could do (drafting, basic calcs, etc.). IMO, they should be structured more like law firms with 'assistants' and whatnot.

The offshore use of engineers is real. Especially for my old business of mechanical systems design. They send the work to offices overseas, bring it back to 'review' and 'stamp' it. Who knows, maybe thats the way to go. Use higher paid PEs to manage/review larger volumes of work done by overseas guys. That allows them to produce more work, bill more and then make more... right? The trouble is that there is some verbiage about how the work is to be directly overseen by the licensed engineer... is that possible in a virtual office? dunno.

As a side note, I quit my normal consulting engineering job about 7 years ago. I do software work now on my own and probably make more than I would have in my old career path, but without the dilbert lifestyle and litigation.

I sort of miss the engineering stuff. I need to finish up some continuing education work to keep my PE license active, it does me no good in my current gig, but its nice to have.

-Bernie

[Moneyguy1]

The math issue is interesting. I have a 12 year old granddaughter who was having difficulty with basic math, still, on occasion, counting on her fingers. I sat with her and was giving her some "pointers" on simple math (like multiplying nines always wind up with a product where the two numbers in the answer always add up to 9) and her mother took me aside and told me that I might upset her even more by trying to help and, after all, the schools know how to teach math. I am a mechanical engineer. I gave no answer, but decided that any help I was willing to give was not apreciated by the girl's mother, so I answer no questions from the granddaughter anymore.

[cgarr]

I belong to the National Model Railroad Association

[Porsche_monkey]

Originally Posted by Moneyguy1

after all, the schools know how to teach math...

If only they did. The reality is they know how to teach to the lowest common denominator. And how to move kids on to the next grade.

[MotoSook]

Originally Posted by einreb

Where's Souk's input?

-Bernie

Wait for it ...after I get some engineering done at the office


BUT! Math in schools? The teachers teaching math and science in elementary schools aren't that bright and rely on the "district systems." I was shocked when I met some of my kids' teachers, but I kept telling myself that it was OK as long as they were smarter than the kids. But for $6000+ in taxes per year to live in the district I wasn't too happy!

Helping the kids with their math and science homework has been interesting. Biggest problem is the teacher's (system's) lack of creativity to help kids develop heuristic techniques that will help them in later life, and not just make it through the program or class!

Our 11 year old came home with metric homework and asked for help....I had to explain to him what a decimeter is! Something so simple, and the math teacher didn't think to teach them the hierachy of the meteric system! They just left it out. I was afraid to think that the teacher didn't know a decimeter existed. So I told my son to ask his teacher why he wasn't taught what a decimeter is. I never heard anything of it, but I hope my son got something out of it.

[David]

The Chinese students I've meet had a much better work/study ethic than most if not all US born students. I think this discipline allows more of them to endure the engineering curriculum.

I think it's up to parents to develop new engineers. I know my son will never be good at sports, but with a little help, I think he’ll be a fine engineer like his old man .

[onewhippedpuppy]

Most of the Chinese/Indian/non-American engineering students that I encounter have an excellent work ethic, and excellent math skills. However, they seem to lack the creativity of many American students, as well as the people skills. In general, they seem to be more like human calculators. Excellent in academics, not so great in the real world.

This is speaking in general terms. I do not underestimate the potential that these people have, it's one of the many reasons America is slowly losing it's lead on the rest of the world.

[einreb]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

However, they seem to lack the creativity of many American students, as well as the people skills. In general, they seem to be more like human calculators. Excellent in academics, not so great in the real world.

Tom Smykowski: Well-well look. I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?

[onewhippedpuppy]

What is it you really DO here?

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Moneyguy1

The math issue is interesting. I have a 12 year old granddaughter who was having difficulty with basic math, still, on occasion, counting on her fingers. I sat with her and was giving her some "pointers" on simple math (like multiplying nines always wind up with a product where the two numbers in the answer always add up to 9) and her mother took me aside and told me that I might upset her even more by trying to help and, after all, the schools know how to teach math. I am a mechanical engineer. I gave no answer, but decided that any help I was willing to give was not apreciated by the girl's mother, so I answer no questions from the granddaughter anymore.

Wow, I think I'd have to have a talk with the mother and continue helping the grand-daughter.

[SlowToady]

How about because Engineering and the hard sciences aren't glamorous? When is the last time you saw a TV show titled "REAL LIFE : I'M A MECHANICAL ENGINEER!" or how about "AMERICA'S NEXT TOP MATHEMATICIAN!" They aren't glamorous, most of the time aren't rich, and from what I can tell, usually lack any semblance of proper social skills. The last part mostly applies to the Mathematicians and Computer Scientists I know. Engineers, no offense intended, seem to be rather bland. I think this is a product of all the time spent studying brain rattling subjects, as opposed to any real "character flaw."

In college, when you're at a party, it's not cool to say "I'm a math major" when a girls asks you. Because no one knows what the hell you do with it, and, since (in my opinion) schools suck at teaching math, most people take an extreme dislike to it early on, and therefore anything beyond College Algebra is inaccessible to them. Social perception is important to developing young men and women, and the "geek" and "nerd" stereotypes of the kids that are good at math and science harass them since they are young kids, which might lead them to shy away from such scholastic concentrations.

On the contrary, it's much cooler to say "I'm an international business major" and "I want to own a multi-national" because it throws visions of wealth and power, which women seem to be attracted to.

I don't exactly think it's because engineering and other disciplines are HARD, exactly. Just what is hard, anyway? I think drawing is hard. I can't even color inside lines, at 21 years old. Write a literary analysis of Shakespeare? I'd rather stick my dick in an oven. It'd be less painful.

There are plenty of kids at University today who have the skills and ambition that would be required to fulfill an engineering or sciences major, but choose something else instead. Maybe because of social perception. Or just plain because they aren't interested. My friend Nick doesn't take any notes at all in math, got a 97% in CalcII and he's shaping up to do the same with CalcIII. He's an English major.

Money? Please. According to Salary.com, a Mechanical Engineer in Lexington, KY can expect to between 51, and $61,000 a year between the 25th and 75th percentile. Mathematicians even less. There are plenty of ways to make $50-60K a year that don't involve all the educational bull**** (ie, hard classes) that Engineering and Math entail. Like Parts Manager at a body shop. The shop I used to work for paid $45K/year plus benefits for a Parts Manager, and they are only a ~$2.5M/year shop. Plenty of shops around that make much, much more (like Central Auto Body).

I have my doubts that the number of graduating ME/EE/CE/whatever students is just because it's "hard." Much deeper reasons than that, I suspect. I've mentioned a few, and I'm sure I'm missing more.