Excellent use of the pimp hand.
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Can't say if you were right or wrong, but at least you did something!!
Sorry to hear about your pup.. No question that has an influence on the way you handle things..
Put my last dog down years ago. Felt her heart stop beating in my hand. Still tear up a bit when I think about it..

i agree that in a perfect world, denis could have maybe made space for the guy to throw the first punch, block it and then knock his lights out..'legally in the clear'. but it's one thing to sit in front of a keyboard and break it down like that..a whole other thing when a man jumps quickly, unexpectedly into your face in real life. i'd have to assume pretty good odds that the guy's intentions were hostile. i may have reacted differently by immediately 'shoving' him back away from me, then waiting for his reaction, but that's if i had time to consider it..doesn't sound like denis had time to really consider all these scenarios and was justified in taking some action. it's not like he chose lethal force..the guy wasn't gonna die from a hard slap, but a guy jumping into your face so abruptly? i'm sure it'd be easy to make the 'correct call' if we had instant-replay, but i'm sticking with the call on the field - 'justified to take defensive action'. as rare as it is to see this sort of behavior in other than a stadium or bar, i'd have been quite surprised and reacted same.

denis..man..romeo..i'm dreading your next thread.. :(

sorry for the double post..dunno why it happened, just don't b!tch-slap me for it! :D

I typed a long response, then suddenly the screen went blank, and I wasn't online any more.

Anyway,

Denis, my friend, I am heartbroken to hear about Romeo. he just doesn't deserve such an affliction. My heart goes to you both. He led a really good life with you and was (is) loved.


On the pimp-slap thing, don't sweat it. You were justified. I know the feeling afterward, and it's not good. Even though you know the guy deserved it, you still feel badly. I clocked a a guy at a gas station about 6 months ago who was lipping off to me. The punk deserved it, but I felt extremely guilty afterward.

Honestly 90% of that was worrying about the legal repercussions, and wishing it was 1955, where you could have a good honest fist fight, and no-one would dare press charges for fear of losing face and looking like a princess.

No long response here. You were wrong, Denis. Part of growing older and maturing is a refusal to revert back to childish behavior. At least you're alive. I once was in an argument with a limo driver in Beverly Hills. What a place to pull a gun, right? Well, he did. End of argument.

My best to you and Romeo. I loved seeing that dog bound across the parking lot when you were at our studio.

taken from msn's homepage tonight..

In Defense of the Fistfight
Why one lippy hippie named Jericho made one writer resolve to start punching jerks again.
By Chris Jones

This whole thing started—or maybe it ended—with these guys engaging in some ritualistic, Hare Krishna clapping crap. They were sitting at a table across the bar from my buddy Phil and me. We were trying to enjoy a quiet pint in our quiet local on a quiet evening, but these hippies wouldn't quit with their clapping. Swear to God, they might as well have been crashing cymbals in my ears.

I asked them politely to stop. "Make us," they said, and then they clapped louder, smiling their dirty-toothed smiles at us, twisting our nipples. One of them was named Jericho, I picked up. He was a skinny bearded guy who looked as though he'd wear Guatemalan mittens in winter. "Jerry," I said when they finally took a break, "come on over here, have a chat." He did, and shortly thereafter, he loosed a throat pony into my face. It was Jerry's bad luck that I had resolved to start punching people again.

It wasn't a snap decision. I'd reached the end of the road after what seemed like a perpetual assault from life's Jerichos—the sorts of a**holes who not only act like a**holes but celebrate their a**holedom: the grease spot who gave me the forearm shiver in our recreational soccer league and said, "It's a man's game, bi***"; the walnut-headed midlife crisis in his convertible who cut me off and then gave me the finger. It felt like they had me surrounded, clapping in concentric circles. I mean, Jesus, a skinny bearded hippie named after a biblical city had just spit in my face.

How'd we get here? Blogs are part of it, along with the incessant frothing of TV pundits and reality-show contestants, especially that lippy midget from The Amazing Race: Everybody thinks they're above being edited. And the saddest part is, the Jerichos are right to feel bulletproof. Somewhere along the way, we've evolved into a culture without consequence, taught so much hokum about the bigger man walking away. Yet to appease us, we've also been told that what goes around comes around. What kind of contradictory horsesh** is that—that one day, accounts will be settled, but by the universe? I like karma as much as the next guy, but lately, watching my city behave more and more like an Internet comments thread in the midst of a flame war, I've grown tired of waiting for the planets to balance the ledger. It's like we've started playing hockey without the enforcers, and all the scrubs are tripping up the skaters with impunity. You know why Wayne Gretzky could be Wayne Gretzky? Because everybody knew that Dave "Cementhead" Semenko would fill you in if you fu**ed with his friend.

Too bad life changes when we take off our skates—constrained by fear of cops, by fear of lawyers, by fear of the wife, all of our judges. Not anymore. I would submit, Your Honor, that if someone is doing something demonstrably asinine, and I ask them to stop it, please, and they say, "Make us," they've entered a binding oral contract whereby I am permitted, even obligated, to try to make them.

And so, before I wiped his spit off my face, I grabbed Jericho by his beard and dragged him outside. By the time I had him squared up, I saw all that I needed to see to know that I'd found a new habit: the regret on his once-smiling face. I was surprised by how good it felt, and I stopped for a second, frozen under the streetlights, satisfied that Jericho was about to make like the walls of that bi*** city, and that I was about to settle my own accounts.

SmileWavy

Dude would be wishing for the pimp hand shortly after the twisting of nipples. The "throat pony" (I'm guessing this was in the UK) would earn him some broken *****.

To those second guessing Dennis, what should one do when someone rushes into your personal space during a heated verbal confrontation - wait to maybe get pounded? No friggin way. It's an act of aggression and you defend yourself. You don't think about laws, or hurt feelings, or guns, in fact, you don't think - you react. At least if you have any self confidence you do. If your the kind of guy that wrings his hands worrying about rules of engagement, well, I wish you luck in this often cruel world. He did the right thing. Defend yourself. Get home safe to the wife and kids. Let the lawyers sort it out.

Yes. Denis, if you put this incident into the overall context of your life and find that it rates the emphasis you have given it (in terms of self righteousness, indignation, machismo, honor, etc.) and you continue to give it the weight that you do, assuming that you're not an 18 yr old macho dude, you've got some serious consideration that you should be engaging in regarding what your life is all about.

Sounds harsh and unfriendly, but really, just making the point that there comes a time in life where one's common sense should reign over spur of the moment emotions. Had you backed off and walked away, is it really important to you what that loser thought of you?

Wow - what a couple of armchair quarterbacks! You're very judgemental for someone who wasn't in harms way. Hopefully your not as wormy when the time comes to defend yourselves. Although falling to the ground, curling into a fetal position, and whimpering any time a conflict comes up will probably save your a$$ 99% of the time. :rolleyes:

I agree with the "not worth the risk" comments, as stated in my previous post. But, what about the clear and present danger in the guy stepping into your face in the first place? In my view, if a guy (in a business or otherwise), is willing to charge you during a confrontation, and you wait around for the first "strike", he could just as easily (and likely) stab you, or knock your a$$ out, right there. Ok, maybe you drop back into a judo stance or some BS to defend yourself, but these things happen quickly. Maybe Denis could have backed away and exited safely, and maybe he wouldn't have been allowed to. Even in this specific scenario, none of us, including Denis, know what WOULD have happened had he not employed the pop to the head. In my view, that action changed the whole dynamic of this situation, and it's impossible to know what would have happened if he had not done it. Bullys thrive when they are allowed to continue bullying. If Denis had tried to back away, that may have galvanized the bully even further. Maybe his sidekicks would have helped subdue Denis....then what?

My point is....a lot of what if's here. Again, drawing a parallel to the police threads, Denis decided (very quickly) that he had enough information to question the intent of this individual. Instead of waiting around to see what he MIGHT do, Denis decided to take control, or at least attempt a move to see if he could derail the current momentum of the scene. In this case, it worked beautifully...turned the bully into the little girl that he truly was. In the next case, the same move from Denis may incite a gunfight, which could be catastrophic.

At the end of the day, all I am saying is that you never know what the outcome is going to be, so you can either attempt to influence the outcome, or just step back and hope for the best. And to those who say Denis should have just left with his damaged car to avoid the whole incident, well, that is allowing the scum of this world to walk on you and will eventually lead to more of these scenarios for the rest of the decent citizens in this world who invite bullys by advertising all of our vulnerability.


JA

[QUOTE=SLO-BOB;3730471]Wow - what a couple of armchair quarterbacks!

Wow? Like everyone posting here isn't an armchair quarterback?

You're very judgemental for someone who wasn't in harms way.

Everyone posting here is being judgemental. The verdicts vary.

Hopefully your not as wormy when the time comes to defend yourselves. Although falling to the ground, curling into a fetal position, and whimpering any time a conflict comes up will probably save your a$$ 99% of the time. :rolleyes:

Like I said, the verdicts vary. On the one hand there's the John Wayne approach, the ********* in the scenario gets his just deserts and the audience cheers. The thing is, however gratifying it may feel to fantasize that yer doin' what the Duke would do, in a real life scenario there is no script and the good guy doesn't always win.

On the other hand are those who choose to back off when outnumbered in an obviously tough and unfriendly environment. Some would say that's the intelligent thing to do. Others (e.g., John Wayne types) will sneer and call the guy wormy.

If you walk into a "ghetto store" I guess you're in the ghetto and the ghetttos I've had experience in are tough places. To do what Denis did makes me think he left his "street smarts" at home that day, doesn't have any or unconsciously feels invincible.

He posted here because he's disturbed by what happened. I don't know if he's looking for comments that he was justified and did the right thing or not.
What I'd really like to know is whether he would do the same thing if he could rerun the movie. My guess is that he wouldn't, but that's only a guess./QUOTE]
..

So you really think Denis taught this scum a lesson and the scum has mended his ways?

So in your opinion those not agreeing that Denis did the right thing are advertising their vulnerability?

Didn't Denis leave with his damaged car in the end anyway? And didn't his actions kind of wipe out any chance of going to the owner of the company and recovering damages?

I think the chances of that situation escalating are a LOT higher when you throw the first blow. Denis could have stood his ground without slapping the guy. Here's another "what if" for you. What if the guy that was humiliated knows how to find Denis and he gets shot in a drive-by?

I know Denis was faced with an instant decision and didn't have the luxury of dozens of comments made by us from the comfort of our keyboards with all the time needed to mull it over. I respect what he did, as I said in my first post. But that doesn't make it right. My thoughts on this were intended for Denis' benefit, not to criticize him. Perhaps so that the next incident results in a different choice. But I don't think that's going to happen. That's fine. Let all the ass holes that come his way get something back that they deserve. It's Denis' physical and financial well-being that's at risk. I choose to not get prosecuted, sued, injured, disfigured, or killed over somebody trying to intimidate me. No matter how big or tough you are, there's always some coward with a knife or gun or AIDS with nothing to lose that will up the ante.

Yes and no. Do I think Denis taught this scumbag a lesson? Yes. Consciously or otherwise, this punk will think twice before he jumps up in somebody's face again. He may still do it, but he will not forget the breakdance he got from Denis. One pop to the head will not make him "mend his ways", but it may prevent him from charging another person so quickly.

Yes, Denis left with his damaged car, and that sucks. But he got his money back, as previous to this he was leaving with no glass, no money, and a damaged car. Given the circumstances, I think he made a wise choice in not returning with another vehicle to pick up his glass.

No, I don't think the posters who disagree with Denis are advertising their vulnerability. What I am saying is that for the average unsuspecting citizen who unwittingly walks in to a circumstance and finds themselves in a confrontation with a bully, knowing that there are people out there who refuse to be walked on improves the chances for the rest of us.


JA

So, do you think Denis did this for the rest of us? Do you think the risk/reward was worth it for him?

No, I don't think Denis did this for the rest of us. I think Denis responded (maybe more of a reflex action), to deal with a threat that was immediately cast upon him.

Honestly Steve, for me, the "is it worth it question" is an individual one. For me, no. I wouldn't have even gone to the ghetto glass shop in the first place. I stay out of places that put me in unnecessarily risky environments. I have a wife, two kids and a great life, so I have too much to lose.

That said, if I was in a nice restaurant in my neighborhood, and something like this was cast upon me unexpectedly, I'd have to weigh the situation. Me, personally...I don't think I would ever pop somebody who just ran up in my face. I am 6'7" and 275 lbs...so it is in my nature to give the situation a little more time. However, that is risky, too, as I mentioned previously. When someone charges you, you don't know if they are going to just pull up in your face or stick you. Denis' response would have prevented getting stuck, while my approach probably wouldn't.

I guess in the end, it's an individual call. I am glad Denis did it in this situation and I am glad it turned out well. If it happened to me, given my extra efforts to stay away from risky places, I'd have to see the scenario unfold for myself before I could tell you what I would actually do.

JA

god. guy has a jerk businessman jump from behind his desk and into his face..guy slaps him back out of it. this isn't rocket science.

don't know many of these posters, but i get the feeling that some just have a hardon, personally for denis. guy's losing his dog, and had a bad day. he posted here for some support, since this is our community. lot to ask. for some, the game of 'devil's advocate' has no end to it imho.

denis, i think if i were you, i'd be done with this thread and just take care of romeo..

You guys are putting way too much scholarly analysis into this. I've been in a fight or two, and generally speaking you do not have the luxury of assuming the position of Rodin's "Thinker" to weigh-out all of the various scenarios before acting. Or not acting.

I've managed to make it 48 years w/o ever being arrested or sued, (knock on wood), and I've also been in plenty of situations where someone deserved a b!tch-slap, (I live in LA), but it was not an option. Assault is still illegal here. I do not go around hitting people. You could probably monkey-slap someone every day in this town who deserved it, just hit the first guy who doesn't hold a door for a woman w/ a stroller or something. I worked as doorman at nightclubs when I was younger and definitely know that you cannot just hit people because they "deserve it" w/o ending up in a courtroom or morgue. I also know how to goad someone like the glass shop guy into hitting me first if I want him to, but I did not do that.

Seriously, I appreciate the concern but this was one of those "had to be there" deals. I feel fine about slapping him, I would not feel fine if I'd knocked his teeth out or given him a concussion. Unless he'd come up swinging or with a bat, then I'd have fuked him up and felt fine. He was younger than me and close in size, but there was no doubt about winning the fight. Real tough guys do not act like he did, I have experience with this. He not only did not fight back, he acted as though it had never happened 5 minutes later. He was a punk, and he will think twice before stepping into some old grey-haired guy's face.

As for my "ghetto" comment, I may have over-stated that detail in my story-telling. It was ghetto compared to their Santa Monica shop, but nothing really awful about it. Plus, I've had absolutely fine business experiences in the real ghetto here, like the brand new windshield for $75.00 installed on my Ford Ranger a couple weeks ago. The place was absolute TJ, but nice people and smiles all around when paying the bill.

You had to be there. The guy was not some gang-member, unless there is a middle-class Jewish gang that I'm not aware of. He was just a bully, and someone who obviously needed a tune-up. He ran a lot better afterwards.

"Real tough guys do act like he did"

typo - "NOT"

And, remember there are different standards here and they are getting mushed together in the discussion:
- one std. is what a reasonable averger guy would do in this situation
- another std. is what you might be able to do to be absolutely sure that you ("rich guy with deep pockets") cannot possibly lose a law suit if the scumbag brought one
- another std. is what you might be able to do to be absolutely sure that you will never be charged with a crime - even an infraction - no matter how much the scumbag lies.
- another std. is what a really well-trained martial arts person could do (a useful comparison since they might get held to a higher legal std. and also for comparison - e.g. if they could not have dodged or blocked in the situation, then no one could have).

It would help if posters kept those separate in their comments.

I didn't really see anybody that blamed you for any thing.

Also, I think it is always helpful to go back over a situation in your mind; also helpful to think out in advance what to do or not do in various situations - not a substitute for practice tho.