Gunman at university shoots 17

[charleskieffner]

lets see here.............didnt i get my huevos melted off when i suggested all teachers carry concealed.

hmmm didnt i earlier suggest that CCW be allowed on schools grounds????


lets see..........im sitting in my NAU MASTERS class and some moron starts shooting, i pull my nelson ford built springfield micro .45 and empty the clip on bad guy..............problem over. no trial, less people killed(your son daughter neighbor friend cousin girlfriend boyfriend wife husband father mother) and life is happy again because bad guys know they cant get away this crap anymore!

sure didnt see this crap 125 years ago when everyJUAN CARRIED WEAPONS!

[URY914]

We haven't had a postal worker go "postal" in some time. What's up with this college shootings crap?

[Rick Lee]

No amount of security is going to prevent this from happening again. The ONLY reason this stuff happens is because the nutcase thinks he'll be able to pull it off and do a lot of damage before he kills himself. You don't see these crazies trying to shoot up gun shows or police stations. They know they'd be dead after their first shot. Cameras and security guards won't be able to stop it. CCW is the only way here and even that's unlikely to be in the right place at the right time. The only way to deter a suicidal nut is to assure him that he'll die after the first shot, not after he's killed lots of people, reloaded, killed some more and then shot himself while the police were still outside putting on their tactical gear.

[targa911S]

Originally Posted by URY914

We haven't had a postal worker go "postal" in some time. What's up with this college shootings crap?

They are all going to school so they can pass the postal exam.

[charleskieffner]

maybe we should have a lil box on college entrance papers called

suicidal?..................... and if checked they are not allowed to enroll!!!

i know for a fact that the lil box on the FFL yellow form that states "are you mentally ill, been diagnosed mentally ill, ever been commitedblah blah blah" sure saves lots of peoples lives! yeah right!

hall monitors with MP-5's

teachers w/CCW's

campus cops everywhere!

then it will move back to post offices!

[legion]

Why go out quietly and on your own when you can be immortalized and have everyone in the country know your name?

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by targa911S

Yep. Easy pickins' in a "gun free" zone. Of course they will blame it on legitimate, legal, and responsible, gun owners and hunters.

I've been in this situation a "shooting" at least one other person in the immediate area was armed, and it did not matter. You're just not fast enough to do anything about it, and even if you did, you would only mitigate the damage to some extent. There needs to be another answer to all of this.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Scott R

I've been in this situation a "shooting" at least one other person in the immediate area was armed, and it did not matter. You're just not fast enough to do anything about it, and even if you did, you would only mitigate the damage to some extent. There needs to be another answer to all of this.

While it's unlikely a CCW'er would be able to stop something like this, even if they were present and within range, they'd at least have a chance, especially when the gunman, as always happens in these cases, needs to reload and does so casually and uninterrupted. I'd rather escape than try to be a hero. But if the gunman is trying to reload and taking his time because he knows no one can stop him, that seems to be the best chance to get off a shot. Having done a few practical shoots where they scream at you and try to get you all scared, shooting left handed, around doors, etc., I know it's nothing like the movies. But when it's a real life and death situation, I'd think any CCW'er would be well motivated to end the situation asap.

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

While it's unlikely a CCW'er would be able to stop something like this, even if they were present and within range, they'd at least have a chance, especially when the gunman, as always happens in these cases, needs to reload and does so casually and uninterrupted. I'd rather escape than try to be a hero. But if the gunman is trying to reload and taking his time because he knows no one can stop him, that seems to be the best chance to get off a shot. Having done a few practical shoots where they scream at you and try to get you all scared, shooting left handed, around doors, etc., I know it's nothing like the movies. But when it's a real life and death situation, I'd think any CCW'er would be well motivated to end the situation asap.

Not likely at all, its seconds, people ducking and screaming, maybe with some para military training, even then its highly doubtful. I was on the ground praying for my life.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Scott R

Not likely at all, its seconds, people ducking and screaming, maybe with some para military training, even then its highly doubtful. I was on the ground praying for my life.

Most CCW'ers I know go shoot at the range more in one month than most cops do in a year. I'd much rather take my chances in trying to take out the nutcase than pray for my life. I'm not aware of the cops ever stopping one of these mass shootings. They always arrive when it's all over to clean up the mess and the gunmen usually had several minutes, if not longer to commit their mayhem. Cops can't be everywhere all the time and citizens need to take some responsibility for their own safety. BTW, cops would be completely within their rights to refuse to even show up until all the shooting was overwith. They are not legally required to protect you.

[targa911S]

Originally Posted by targa911S
Yep. Easy pickins' in a "gun free" zone. Of course they will blame it on legitimate, legal, and responsible, gun owners and hunters.


"I've been in this situation a "shooting" at least one other person in the immediate area was armed, and it did not matter. You're just not fast enough to do anything about it, and even if you did, you would only mitigate the damage to some extent. There needs to be another answer to all of this."
__________________

My point was that the anti gun nuts will get their panties all in a wad over this, and the legitimate and responsible owners will pay, as always.

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Most CCW'ers I know go shoot at the range more in one month than most cops do in a year. I'd much rather take my chances in trying to take out the nutcase than pray for my life. I'm not aware of the cops ever stopping one of these mass shootings. They always arrive when it's all over to clean up the mess and the gunmen usually had several minutes, if not longer to commit their mayhem. Cops can't be everywhere all the time and citizens need to take some responsibility for their own safety. BTW, cops would be completely within their rights to refuse to even show up until all the shooting was overwith. They are not legally required to protect you.

Good luck with that, being at range, and being shot at is totally different, soiled shorts will be first on the list. Since this is so "iffy" what else do you have?

[914GT]

Too bad James the John Wayne fan wasn't there.
http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa080214_lj_hawes.bfc57dff.html

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Scott R

I've been in this situation a "shooting" at least one other person in the immediate area was armed, and it did not matter. You're just not fast enough to do anything about it, and even if you did, you would only mitigate the damage to some extent. There needs to be another answer to all of this.

Please, do let us know when you come up with one.

In the meantime, having a gun in such a situation is inarguably better than not having one. It certainly gives one more options, whether they are exercised or not.

...and even if you did, you would only mitigate the damage to some extent. Uh huh... if that "mitigation" involves saving even one life, it has certainly been a succesful intervention, has it not?

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Please, do let us know when you come up with one.

In the meantime, having a gun in such a situation is inarguably better than not having one. It certainly gives one more options, whether they are exercised or not.

...and even if you did, you would only mitigate the damage to some extent. Uh huh... if that "mitigation" involves saving even one life, it has certainly been a succesful intervention, has it not?

One life is not enough, I want all of them, how shortsighted of you. This is the best you can some up with? Shame.

[M.D. Holloway]

Originally Posted by legion

Why go out quietly and on your own when you can be immortalized and have everyone in the country know your name?

so who was it that shot up those kids in Colorado? Va Tech? the Iowa shopping mall? How about naming at least three of the people who flew into the WTC?

The sad thing, save the first to step on the moon and maybe one who died in the first shuttle crash, the general population doesn't remember anyone anyway.

I don't know if these people do what they do for the headlines but they do not go down in history.

[legion]

I've been thinking this over. How to solve the problem? How to save student lives in these situations? I've heard several solutions floated both on the discussion forums on my local newspaper and in person at work today...

Solution # 1: Security Cameras

What are they going to do other than to document the incident?

Solution # 2: Metal Detectors

To be effective, they must be manned by trained, armed guards. I think the cost of putting a metal detector at every door at NIU with a staff at guards gets prohibitively expensive real quick--even if you did start permanently locking some doors so they didn't have to have metal detectors. That, and it takes one guy charging the metal detectors to make the whole thing moot. All windows, loading docks, unsecured doors, etc. in all building would also have to be secured.

Solution # 3: Increase the size of the campus police force

Unless you have one police officer for each student, the police can't be everywhere all the time. And 25,000 police for 25,000 students would be prohibitively expensive.

So now we are just talking about increasing the size of the campus police force moderately. What do police do in these situations? They secure the border and only go in after the shooting stops. They don't save lives, they take reports and clean up messes.

Solution # 4: Ban Guns on Campus

This was already the case, see results above.

Solution # 5: Ban All Guns, Everywhere

This would work if it was possible. Unfortunately, there is no way to make millions of firearms dissapear overnight. They will never all be collected. They will always be out there. Pandora won't go back into the box. A determined psycho will always be able to get one. Never mind that this solution is blatantly unconstitutional.

Solution # 6: Mandate Armed Teachers

I don't like the idea of "forcing" someone to be armed if they don't want to be. A police force is one thing, but an educator is not a police force. Besides, who's to say that teachers would react correctly in this kind of situation? Some would refuse to carry or forget. This would cause all sorts of labor disputes with left-leaning professors. Could it be effective? Maybe. It would at least make psycho gunman think they might meet some meaningful resistance.

Solution # 7: Allow Armed Teachers

I'm fine with this. It has all of the advantages of the above solution with none of the drawbacks. It does violate the "gun-free school zones" currently in place, though.

Solution # 8: Allow Students to Carry Concealed

There are many legal obstacles to this in Illinois. First, there is no provision for concealed carry in this state (and no real provision for open carry either). Second, no one under 21 can legally posses a handgun in Illinois. That rules out most college students. I also don't think the majority of college students are mature enough for the responsibility of carrying. Like allowing armed teachers, it would at least make psycho gunman think he might encounter some meaningful resistance.

Solution # 9: Do Nothing

Accept that the freedoms we want come with some consequences. All freedoms, be they freedom of religion or freedom of speech, for a variety of reasons mean that some people will lose their lives because of their free exercise. It is unfortunate, but I'd much rather live with the risk of death and be free than be coddled and protected and guaranteed to live a safe, mediocre, monotonous existence.

[RickM]

This mix is interesting.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/niu_shooting


"NIU gunman stopped taking medication

DEKALB, Ill. - The man who gunned down five people at Northern Illinois University in a suicidal rampage became erratic after halting his medication and carried a shotgun to campus inside a guitar case, police said Friday.
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The man, 27-year-old former student Stephen Kazmierczak, was also wielding three handguns during Thursday's ambush inside a lecture hall.

Two of the weapons — the pump-action Remington shotgun and a Glock 9mm handgun — were purchased legally less than a week ago, on Feb. 9, authorities said. They were purchased in Champaign, where Kazmierczak was enrolled at the University of Illinois...."

[legion]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080215/ap_on_el_pr/obama

MILWAUKEE - Barack Obama says the country must do "whatever it takes" to eradicate gun violence but believes in the right to bear arms.

I believe half of his statement. His record in Illinois was decidedly anti-gun. I don't believe for a second he has had a change of heart on the issue--other than to keep his campaign viable.

[The Gaijin]

Originally Posted by livi

This "shoot your school mates" trend is an enigma to me. If you are so pissed off with your life and/or certain people that rule your life - why not take it out on them particularly or just shoot yourself at home..?? This indiscriminate random killing makes no sense. But maybe I am being supremely naive. People will go crazy and fork all sense out the window.

This is just the thing. From the point of view of this nutcase - it was a suicide. But why do people now feel the need to kill others before they kill themselves?? This is the change we are dealing with.