Attorney fees

lendaddy · 02-21-2008, 06:00 AM

We haven't needed an attorney for a while and now we do. We like the one we have but I just opened his bill and it's $225 an hour.

It is what it is but I was just wondering if this is normal (Corporate attorney, not personal).

This is a small, small town firm with maybe half a dozen in the office.

[lament] Why didn't I take that scholarship[/lament]

Macroni · Macroni's Garage

Very reasonably priced compared to the attorney fees I have paid in the last year.

126coupe · 126coupe's Garage

Thats reasonable, I Just paid $300.00 per hour for some Real Estate contract work. That was the "friend of a friend" deal. He usually gets $350.00 perhour

lendaddy · 02-21-2008, 06:13 AM

Ok, thanks guys. It's just been a while.

I have a used another firm here in the city (a huge monster of a firm) and I decided with this I didn't want to end up with the greenest associate in a big pond.

cgarr · cgarr's Garage

What county Len? I have used several just south of GR

lendaddy · 02-21-2008, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgarr

What county Len? I have used several just south of GR

Ottawa county(West of Grand Rapids which is Kent county)

What do you get up here for?

Jims5543 · 02-21-2008, 06:30 AM

Mine is billing me $300 hr. Your getting a deal.

Its frustrating, I am caught up in a BS lawsuit against me and its costing $3,000 to $5,000 a month. The nice part is I am 100% I will win this and I am praying the judge/jury order my legal fees payed in full.

MRM · 02-21-2008, 06:33 AM

Very astute thinking, Len. That is a very reasonable rate for a business matter. Unless it's a huge complex case where you need an army of attorneys, you're probably better off with a smaller firm where the attorney you retain is the one who does the work. Just remember that there's a lot of overhead in law, as there is in other professional fields, so you need to pay a decent hourly rate to keep the lawyer motivated to give you good service. Sounds like you've found someone with a good ballance of professionalism and acceptable rates.

island911 · 02-21-2008, 07:00 AM

$225 is reasonable ONLY if they can deliver $225 worth of value. Many cannot.

the · 02-21-2008, 07:43 AM

Too many people focus on just the rate. Remember, there are 2 components to the bottom line on your legal bill. (1) Rate, and (2) hours.

The rate is fixed, but the hours are highly variable. Using that variable, the attorney can make your bill whatever he wants it to be. Really, the hourly rate is pretty much unimportant, because of the other variables that make up the bill. All that really matters is how good the work is, and what the bottom line cost is.

Keep careful track of what he is doing, and make sure you are happy that he is doing it efficiently, and that the bill makes sense at the end of the month.

After you get your first bill, call him and, in a very nice manner, question him about some of the minor charges. Not in a complaining way, just in a "oh, I saw this and was wondering what it was for" way. It's a way of letting him know that you are carefully looking at the bills, instead of just getting and paying them. It may help to take a bit of the lead out of his pencil the next time he prepares his bill.

lendaddy · 02-21-2008, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the

Too many people focus on just the rate. Remember, there are 2 components to the bottom line on your legal bill. (1) Rate, and (2) hours.

The rate is fixed, but the hours are highly variable. Using that variable, the attorney can make your bill whatever he wants it to be. Really, the hourly rate is pretty much unimportant, because of the other variables that make up the bill. All that really matters is how good the work is, and what the bottom line cost is.

Keep careful track of what he is doing, and make sure you are happy that he is doing it efficiently, and that the bill makes sense at the end of the month.

After you get your first bill, call him and, in a very nice manner, question him about some of the minor charges. Not in a complaining way, just in a "oh, I saw this and was wondering what it was for" way. It's a way of letting him know that you are carefully looking at the bills, instead of just getting and paying them. It may help to take a bit of the lead out of his pencil the next time he prepares his bill.

Thanks, I appreciate the advice.

cgarr · cgarr's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by the

After you get your first bill, call him

Don't forget the meter will be running during this call too:

lendaddy · 02-21-2008, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgarr

Don't forget the meter will be running during this call too:

lol I've told this story before but it's worth a recap.

We bought a large piece of equipment a few years back from a failed enterprise that consisted of a couple of lawyers and another guy that wanted to start a business. Bottom line is they were over their heads and folded the tent.

We bought the main piece of equipment and left them with some ancillary items.

A year later we had a need for some of the extras and I called him up and asked for prices. A couple days go by and I get an e-mailed list of the items with their prices (which were stupid high) and I immediately thanked him but declined as we could make the items much cheaper.

I got a call from him not minutes later and he was unhappy. He incredulously complained to me that he had spent hours making that list and who was going to reimburse him for that? I **** you not. I didn't even understand what he was talking about and when it hit me I laughed. I then explained that in this business you don't get paid to quote.

It was more involved and humorous than that but I'm pressed for time right now.

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

Funny stuff. . .

I'd have told him that if he was going to bill for the time preparing the quote, he could have at least researched competitive prices on the quotes before just pulling #'s out of the sky.

the · 02-21-2008, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cgarr

Don't forget the meter will be running during this call too:

Maybe! Be sure you write on your calendar the date and time that you made the call. Keep the call brief (like less than 2 minutes) and to the point, just talk about the bill, not about the case.

Then when the next bill comes, you will learn a lot about his billing practices. (IMO he should only bill you for legal work and advice, not for discussing his bill).

MRM · 02-21-2008, 08:47 AM

Len, if you do what is suggested above, you will probably find out a lot about your lawyer, buy not in the way you think. If you call on a pretense to quibble about a small item on the bill, a lawyer who is overcharging you will probably negotiate with you, mark his bills down to make you happy and upcharge you somewhere else where you'll never see it. A good lawyer who is busy and giving you good value for the time he is charging is likely to send the file back to you. Look the bill over. Are you happy with the rate and time? If everything looks good and you're happy with his work leave him alone. He's treating you well. If you give him the impression you're going to flyspeck his bills he will either overcharge you to make up for the discounts he promises you or he'll send you back the file. If it happened to me I would give the client one short phone call explaination of my bill. At the second call I would tell the client he could accept my bill or take his file back. I might be more prickly than most lawyers, but I wouldn't tolerate that from a client because doing that usually suggests the client will be more difficult as the case goes on. Don't create an unpleasant feeling between you and your attorney if the bills look good the way they are. But if you think he's juicing the bills pull the file immediately.

MRM · 02-21-2008, 08:53 AM

Also look at the minimum billing unit that firm charges. Some firms .25 hours (15 min) as the minimum time to be billed for the task. No one charges less than .1 (6 minutes) simply because it would be impossible to charge perfect per minute time. So a 2 minute phone call costs the same as a 5 minute one.

RWebb · RWebb's Garage

I don't do work for outside clients, but I know large companies do check the billings they get from their law firms. OTOH, in the small business context, I suspect MRM is right.

The real question is value. How do you find that out? Well, other lawyers in town will know who the best people are in their field. $225 is what someone with about 8 years of experience might charge here - a city of 150,000. A specialist would charge more. Specializing in litigation in federal ct. usually means more than a state court type person. And so on...

911Rob · 911Rob's Garage

Hurts everytime.
Made me cry once

Jims5543 · 02-22-2008, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911Rob

Hurts everytime.
Made me cry once

I am crying right now, sleepless nights, anxiety, felling of invasion of privacy as they order to see everything in my life.

As we approach the court date I find myself up al night playing it out in my head.

Here is a question, you call out your attorney on billing practices and he gets pissed and tells you he no longer wants to represent you. Then what?

I feel like I am caught in a bad situation where I need to just take it up the ass for a year and hope I can recover my losses in the end.