Will Porsche be able to respond (enough)?

[Milu]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I think we tend to forget that, in general, WE are not the ones buying brand new Porsches. Porsche USA doesn't make any money off of people who buy a 911SC, Carrera, 944, etc.

Don't they make money from the sale of spares?

[sketchers356]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I think we tend to forget that, in general, WE are not the ones buying brand new Porsches. Porsche USA doesn't make any money off of people who buy a 911SC, Carrera, 944, etc. In general, I'd be willing to bet that the buyers of new Porsches look at the prestige and the appearence of the car. How many rich trophy wives care about lap times?

For the rich enthusiast, new Porsches do still offer a great driving experience. The GTR is undoubtably fast, but I wonder if it gives the same experience as a GT3 or 997 Turbo? The GTR is about technology, but technology often times takes the driver out of the loop. All new cars, even Porsches, are guilty of this, some far more so than others.

Perfectly said. I do wish that Porsche would do a Elise/modern 914/Cayman RS type car.

[DavidB911]

The GTR does what it was designed to do, be "faster" than a 911 Turbo and Z06 Corvette. Porsche does not need to resiprocate by making a "faster" car. Why chase a one horse wonder when they are and have been the lead horse for years. ANY car can be made fast and I would rather have the heritage of a 911 in my driveway/stable than a Nissan (granted they have a few cars that have done well against Porsches).

[CJFusco]

Just my $.02, but I believe that, with the way Porsche currently stratifies its model line, the best choice for a bare-bones, stripped down sports car a la Lotus Exige, 73 Porsche 911RS, etc., would be the Cayman. It might help to legitimize the platform, as well...

[sketchers356]

Originally Posted by CJFusco

Just my $.02, but I believe that, with the way Porsche currently stratifies its model line, the best choice for a bare-bones, stripped down sports car a la Lotus Exige, 73 Porsche 911RS, etc., would be the Cayman. It might help to legitimize the platform, as well...

They did it with the 944 ala the 951. Makes sense.

[Jims5543]

Originally Posted by Milu

Don't they make money from the sale of spares?

I may be wrong here, but I thought I read posts from Wayne stating Porsche is providing less and less and aftermarket is stepping up and as Porsche OEM parts dwindle the price skyrockets for them.


I just read a newspaper article a few weeks ago about car manufacturers and their support of grassroots racers.

The article was more around a couple who raced an RX8 in Autocrosses and how their Mazdaspeed membership allows them a $3000 break on new cars and typically 50% off parts for the car and they also get money when they win bigger venues like the nationals.<--- BTW by and far the leader in support for grassroots racers.

They ran down the list of different manufacturers and their support and I had the chuckle at Porsche NA support. You can call their techs up free of charge if your actively involved in motorsports for free advise.

When I joined the PCA I was assuming along with membership and a active motorsports calender (i.e. AX and DE's) there would also be some sort of discount program for those involved in motorsports I was shocked to see the pedigree of racing has nothing for its members.


Back on topic, will Porsche step up? Do they have to? Will your typical buyer of a 80-100K car REALLY want a Chevy or a Nissan? Probably not, Porsche is synonymous with utmost quality and, to a degree exclusivity. Will Datsun/Nissan have that same meaning here in the USA? Probably not.

The GT-R is the Holy Grail to the Tuner world and an older one comes out to the PCA Autocrosses a lot and its beautiful and SUPER fast. But the new one is a giant and I am not sure that is in proper company with a Vette and 911 it would be more at home racing a M5 or E65.

[sketchers356]

They should make the Cayman the sports car and the 911 the GT.

[legion]

Originally Posted by sketchers356

They should make the Cayman the sports car and the 911 the GT.

With how Ferrari is whooping up on the 911 GT3 RS, I would hope sooner rather than later....

[CJFusco]

Originally Posted by sketchers356

They did it with the 944 ala the 951. Makes sense.

Well, I would say that the 951 legitimized the 944 platform in the eyes of the automotive world, it definitely wasn't a stripped-down, lightweight version. If anything, the 951 feels more like a GT than the early 944 did, despite the fact that it is much, much faster.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Jim is right, Porsche is producing less and less parts for their cars, especially the older ones. Expect to see NLA a lot more often in the parts catalog. Again, it's back to the issue at hand, these are not their primary buyers. Also, for the older cars I'd guess it probably costs more to produce and store many parts than they make on the sale, especially for lower volume stuff. Remember, Porsche exists to make money, and they're pretty damn good at it.

Kudos to Mazda for their support of racing, Zoom-Zoom is more than just a catchy slogan. It's the kind of support that Porsche should be giving, because their heritage and racing past is largely responsible for their success today.

[DanielDudley]

Nissans wooping their butts on the road course, and Ferraris wooping them at the races.

It's getting so they have to push the Cayman pretty hard just to keep it down. Numerous statements about making sure the Cayman never outperforms the 911 say it all.

[75Carrera]

Originally Posted by look 171

Lotus has done this with its Elise and Exige and other car companies need to design and produce a back to basics lightweight sports car that can go as fast as the big cars with lots less power and better fuel economy.

They wouldn't sell too many. Too many of us want muti. elec ports for various $hit we run while driving. We need the large screen tv in the center of the dash. Oh, don't forget the adj suspen. 9000lbs 15 way adj leather seats with heaters. On and on. I talk to some who claims they are a car guy. Many talked about how wonderful the amount of computer stuff they have in sports cars these days. they like all that auto ajdustable crap on there. I took someone our in my 00 S2000. First thing they say is "What? No Sat map sys. and no power seats for a 30k car".[/QUOTE]

Check this out. Lotus fun... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOyrt2Ptvbk

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by speeder

Should have been a GT3 against those two cars, or maybe a GT2. And someone other than a Nissan factory driver doing the track times comparison. Other than that, a fair contest.

A 997 turbo is a heavy, luxurious GT car totally positioned for street over track use. The ZO6, and I assume the GTR are each companies' ultimate track weapon. Use Porsche's as well.

Actually 3 Road & Track Writers I believe. No company had a test driver on site.

Also these were supposed to be top of lines for each manufacturer. One may argue with the choices (GT vs sports car), but if anything the Vette was closest to the sports car with only 2 seats. Both the GTR and the 997turbo were 2 + 2's.

[dan79brooklyn]

Nürburgring (Nordschleife) lap times.
7:38 Nissan GT-R 480 PS/1740 kg
7:39 Porsche 997 GT3 415 PS/1395 kg
7:40 Bugatti Veyron 16/4 1001 PS/1888 kg
7:40 Mercedes-Benz SLR 626 PS /1768 kg
7:42 Ford GT 550 PS/1521 kg
7:42 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 505 hp / 1450 kg
7:44 Pagani Zonda S 550 PS/1280 kg
7:46 Lamborghini Gallardo Superleggera 530 PS/1330 kg
7:46 Porsche 996 GT2 462 PS/1450 kg
7:47 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano 620 PS/1690 kg
7:47 Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 E-gear 640 PS/n/a

IT'S A COOL CAR

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by kstarnes

I was hinting at giving folks all the conveniences . . . in a light package. That would be the bee's knees.

Best,

Kurt

all the conveniences is what adds all the weight, you can twist it around however you like, but once you eat your cake, it is gone and you don't have it anymore.

I would buy a Cayman RS. 3.8 motor, power nothing, hand crank windows, might have to put A/C in it. Problem is that I would NEVER buy anything from the local Porsche dealer, I guess I could drive to San Fran, but I still would have to take it in for service some time, or have to buy parts, though I could just order the stuff from Wayne, which is what I do now


Nissan GTR is not for the same audience as a 997 turbo. Someone considering the GTR would look at the 911, but not visa versa, for the most part.

[kstar]

Originally Posted by Tobra

all the conveniences is what adds all the weight, you can twist it around however you like, but once you eat your cake, it is gone and you don't have it anymore.

. . . snip . . .

Things all around us are getting smaller and lighter all the time. I don't think all of the components that add safety and convenience to cars are going to stay the same size and weight - these things will get lighter.

I also think lightness will find its way into things like bodies, frames, seats, suspensions, etc. driven primarily by a desire for better fuel economy. These advances will find their way into performance cars as well, IMO.

Manufacturers can't keep adding weight and subsequently adding horsepower to compensate. This trend will not last, IMO.

At some point new technologies, new materials and new engineering concepts and production techniques will converge to offer added lightness at a reasonable price . . . largely driven by fuel economy.

No "twisting" required, it's just simple progress.

Best,

Kurt

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by kstarnes

I agree 100%. That's why it would be revolutionary to have the conveniences and light-weight AND performance all at a reasonable cost.

I think it is a difficult proposition but not impossible.

The problem may be, as you previously stated, that there just isn't much demand for such a car. I would argue that fuel economy is more likely to drive light weight than performance, but would expect the exotics to lead with a "loaded" performance car which was also lightweight.

Are there any such beasts at car shows or as design studies?

Best,

Kurt

Porsche could have one model left and dedicated to its roots. 'Ill bet that if GM brought back anything classic as much as it was with the minimum DOT stuff on it, it would sell enough to pay for itself. The marketing effect would be priceless. You think the Mustangs don't put "Ford" in people's mouths? VW didn't hurt itself one bit with the new beetle and I think it's a money maker at that. It's pretty easy to lose a corporate identity these days. Even CocaCola is trying too hard. Don't fuk with the flagship.

Porsche could lose it's identity, but it would have to all but stop production of two seaters. Meanwhile, we just move "forward" with them and their ideas.

[kstar]

Not much detail here, but even Porsche has some kind of "light weight technology" it will deploy in the Panamera. I think we can safely assume Porsche will apply this to other models.

The lightweight technology in Porsche's upcoming Panamera is being coveted by Volkswagen. Porsche Chief Designer Wolfgang Dürheimer told Automobilwoche that VW and Audi made it clear that they are interested in using the new materials for their own vehicles once Porsche became a significant VW shareholder. Since VW also has technologies that Porsche might want and the two have co-developed a hybrid transmission, working together on lightweight body panels, etc., is only natural, says Dürheimer. Porsche and VW will "increasingly work together in appropriate areas such as development to cut costs for all partners," he told the magazine.

Source: http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/11/21/porshces-lightweight-technology-eyed-by-vw-and-audi/

---------------------------------

Here's a European project that is interesting and germane:

SuperLIGHT-CAR is a collaborative Research & Development project co-funded by the European Commission under the 6th Framework Programme. In SuperLIGHT-CAR, 38 leading organizations from 9 european countries work together to bring lightweight automotive technologies closer to high volume car production.
SuperLIGHT-CAR has a multi-material philosophy, striving to use for each part the best material and manufacturing processes in terms of weight and cost minimization, while fulfilling a wide range of automotive requirements in areas such as stiffness, crash performance, fatigue and corrosion resistance, etc.

The core driving force for SuperLIGHT-CAR has been from the start a group of seven European car makers: Volkswagen (as coordinator), Fiat Research Centre, Opel, Renault, Volvo Technology Centre, Porsche and DaimlerChrysler. These, together with top level organizations from science (e.g. Fraunhofer Institutes, Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt or Commisariat à l´énergie atomique) as well as the supplier industry (e.g. Arcelor, Hydro, Corus or Comau), have defined the SuperLIGHT-CAR approach. The project has an ambitious objective; it aims to deliver the technologies and design concepts that would allow up to 30% weight reduction in the C-class car models of the future generations, while respecting the very demanding cost restrictions of such popular models. SuperLIGHT-CAR coordinates with other major RTD projects co-funded under the 6th Framework Programme through the EUCAR umbrella (EUCAR: European Council for Automotive Research).

The precompetitive achievements of SuperLIGHT-CAR applied in series production beyond 2010 will serve a basis to save millions of tons fuel respectively carbon dioxide due to significantly reduced vehicle weight.

Source: http://www.superlightcar.com/public/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

------------------------------

There's lots more stuff like this going on! It's ironic that a quest for better fuel economy via lightweight will find its way back to the benefit of performance cars.

Further, I think a sort of wall has been hit working the F = m * a equation by just upping horsepower to compensate for added weight, although this has been the cheaper solution for manufacturers. It cost a lot more money to approach the equation from the weight side, but fuel costs have forced makers to to do so.

FWIW.

Best,

Kurt

[pwd72s]

[QUOTE=milt;3861249

Porsche could lose it's identity, but it would have to all but stop production of two seaters. Meanwhile, we just move "forward" with them and their ideas.[/QUOTE]

Milt? As Tonto said to the Lone Ranger...they surrounded by thousands of hostile "Injuns"...."Where do you get this "we" ****...white man????" I mean, I belonged to the the church of Porsche for decades.

All this? Reminds me of when Reagan was asked why he left the democrat party. He said that he didn't leave the party, the party left him.

I pretty much feel the same way about "Porsche"...

[450knotOffice]

Originally Posted by dan79brooklyn

Nürburgring (Nordschleife) lap times.
7:38 Nissan GT-R 480 PS/1740 kg
7:39 Porsche 997 GT3 415 PS/1395 kg
7:40 Bugatti Veyron 16/4 1001 PS/1888 kg
7:40 Mercedes-Benz SLR 626 PS /1768 kg
7:42 Ford GT 550 PS/1521 kg
7:42 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 505 hp / 1450 kg
7:44 Pagani Zonda S 550 PS/1280 kg
7:46 Lamborghini Gallardo Superleggera 530 PS/1330 kg
7:46 Porsche 996 GT2 462 PS/1450 kg
7:47 Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano 620 PS/1690 kg
7:47 Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 E-gear 640 PS/n/a

IT'S A COOL CAR

I'll add that the 997 GT2 did it in 7:32 with Walter Rohrl. So the Nissan is not the fastest out there (although it IS dollar for dollar).