Will Porsche be able to respond (enough)?

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

I'll add that the 997 GT2 did it in 7:32 with Walter Rohrl. So the Nissan is not the fastest out there (although it IS dollar for dollar).

There are more horses left in the engine per Nissan. And if Rohrl could've taken the GTR, might he not have gone faster than the GT2?

This just hearkens back to the gap getting narrower between the uber costly and the frugal. EVO had a comparo with a new subie and the Gallardo, where they ended up being pretty evenly matched in everything except max grunt/straight line.

[island911]

That Nissan sure is ugly. ...but at least it's big.

Big fast & ugly. ...but hey, it's only $70,000.

[Dantilla]

Remember the ad campaign when Dodge introduced the Stealth?

"Dodge made Porsche call 911"

The turbo Stealth had better 0-60 and 1/4 mile times than the 911 at the time, for which Dodge was very proud.

When was the last time anybody lusted after a Dodge Stealth? While obviously a great car,
I'm not worried about Nissan kicking Porsche off of the pedestal.

[DavidB911]

Originally Posted by island911

That Nissan sure is ugly. ...but at least it's big.

Big fast & ugly. ...but hey, it's only $70,000.

and add the 20k+ for dealer markup. i saw one invoice for 97k.

i think we all know that different drivers (Walter Rohrl) will be able to pull more from a car than others.

[s_wilwerding]

I know this is probably sacrilege to say on this Board, but I think the flat six, turbo or NA, has run its course. I don't see that Porsche is going to be squeezing significantly more HP out of that platform anymore.

That said, how cool would it be to have the RS Spyder's V-8 implanted into a Cayman? With Porsche's clutch technology, as in the Spyder, they could mount the engine pretty low, and they haven't even tried to turbo the V-8 yet.

Start the petition now!

[onewhippedpuppy]

kstarnes, the technology is out there, it's just making it affordable. I'm in the aviation industry, where every ounce is coveted. Right now you can have cheap or lightweight, not both. Adoption of lightweight materials by the auto industry would help, as we would likely see far more supply on the market, and subsequent price drops. Right now it's such a niche market that it's stayed pretty high.

I agree with you, weight loss will be essential with the new fuel economy standards that are upcoming. You can only make an internal combustion so efficient, after that you need to look elsewhere to raise MPG. I expect companies to take a closer look at aerodynamics, even on average cars, and try to drop weight. Hopefully economy of scale can make the price of carbon fiber and similar materials feasible, but the manufacturing methods are still more involved and costly than simply using steel. No such thing as a free lunch.

[island911]

Originally Posted by s_wilwerding

I know this is probably sacrilege to say on this Board, but I think the flat six, turbo or NA, has run its course. I don't see that Porsche is going to be squeezing significantly more HP out of that platform anymore.
...!

-- they have lots of room to to grow, if more HP is the goal.

[s_wilwerding]

Originally Posted by island911

-- they have lots of room to to grow, if more HP is the goal.

How? They claim they can't jam a bigger engine in the existing architecture, and making a bigger flat six is going to get past the efficiency curve pretty quickly (see 16 cylinder 917 from Rennsport III). I'm not making this up - I know I've read that they just can't keep making bigger flat sixes.

[onewhippedpuppy]

BMW has admitted to being at the limit of the NA straight 6, so it's not inconveivable that it could happen to the Porsche flat 6. Notice BMW's hottest models use a twin-turbo straight 6, V8, and V10 respectively.

[450knotOffice]

Wait a minute. The Nissan uses a 3.8 liter V6 to generate about 500 hp. The GT2 uses a 3.6 liter engine to generate 530 hp. The tuner 997 turbos we all read about in the Porsche mags make between 580 and 700 hp. Unless we're looking for normally aspirated horsepower (no real reason) or 800+ hp, the twin turbocharged engines make plenty of horsepower. Yes, a larger displacement 8 would be nice, but it's not why Porsche is losing to Nissan. It's the Nissan's chassis and electronics that are beating Porsche. Simply put, that car can go deeper into a corner and come out of it harder - and make it look easy. Porsche could probably match Nissan in this regard if they really wanted to. The question is, do they really want to.

[911Freak]

Porsche has already set the bar...it's the GT2...
yes it's many times more $$ that the Nissan,
but for all out a$$ kicking performance it rocks..
see the latest Motor Trend; test between the Z06-F430-Viper and Lambo Gallardo... GT2 out peormes all of them; out accelerates 0-60 @ 3.4, quickest qtr mile @ 11.4, 60-0 braking @ 98 ft, Lateral acceleration @ 1.10g!

The Nissan can't put up all those numbers.....

GT-R; 0-60 3.4, qtr mi @ 11.8, lateral @ 1.01g, 60-0 108 ft... nuff said..
Porsche there is no substitute

[450knotOffice]

Thank you. My faith is restored.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by s_wilwerding

I know this is probably sacrilege to say on this Board, but I think the flat six, turbo or NA, has run its course. I don't see that Porsche is going to be squeezing significantly more HP out of that platform anymore.

Then they start squeezing the excess out of the car. How did the 911 and the Corvette ever arrive at the same weight?

The problem is the public and the marketing people. Market something else and people will buy it if you show them why. Meanwhile, it's a contest of luxury in sports cars, an oxymoron if there ever was one.

[Jeff Alton]

Remember that it is a business, not a theory. Porsche builds/designs cars that will sell, and they are damn good at it. I get a kick out of all the folks complaining about the "direction" when they can not afford and are not in the market for a new Porsche. Porsche is not interested in pleasing people who do not have the means to purchase the product, nor should they. Why make a car that people who can not buy one love??

Now, there are still lots of folks with the means to buy who would love a change in the "direction" but they do not out wiegh the number that continues to march into dealerships and buy new Porsches.......

Cheers

[quaz]

For once I am proud of Chevy. If we are just talking lap times per dollar I have 3 letters for you......ZR1

http://jalopnik.com/cars/detroit-auto-show/2009-chevrolet-corvette-zr1-revealed-officially-334923.php

For the money there will be no better bang for your buck.

[Komenda Fan]

They are all great cars, and deserve to be respected as such. I'll never have the money for a 911 Turbo/GT3/GT2, but the GTR is a possibility. The ZR1 is quite a beast, even if its getting up there in price.

Next year the V-spec version of the GTR arrives, with more horsepower and a rumoured 250 lbs drop in weight (deleting some luxuries, carbon fibre body panels). I guess for me, there always has been something appealing about driving a car thats faster than far more expensive machines.

[CJFusco]

I have read numerous sources state that Porsche is nearing the end of its development of the flat six engine - actually, I think I remember reading that 3.8 liters was the largest displacement that they could get out of the flat six configuration without experiencing running problems...

... then again, they thought the same thing about the 944's already rough-running (without the balance shafts, of course) 2.5 liter four... a few years later, they had a 3.0

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by Jim Cesiro

I just read a newspaper article a few weeks ago about car manufacturers and their support of grassroots racers.

The article was more around a couple who raced an RX8 in Autocrosses and how their Mazdaspeed membership allows them a $3000 break on new cars and typically 50% off parts for the car and they also get money when they win bigger venues like the nationals.<--- BTW by and far the leader in support for grassroots racers.

Mazda is out-Porscheing Porsche. On a budget scale i guess. LOVE the direction they are taking.


If i had $90k to drop on a sports car i wouldn't even drive past a Nissan dealership. Fad cars just aren't worth my hard earned money. I'll take the used GT-3 behind door # 3 please

[island911]

Originally Posted by berettafan

If i had $90k to drop on a sports car i wouldn't even drive past a Nissan dealership. Fad cars just aren't worth my hard earned money. I'll take the used GT-3 behind door # 3 please

Wait! before you take what's behind door #3, let me show you again just how big and ugly the Nissan is.


Next to an old NSX




wait wait .. .


just look at that big ugly butt...




How could you want anything else?

[berettafan]

wow, that is a startling size difference!

Kinda makes me want an NSX.