All Evolutionists, go see the movie "Expelled"

[the]

Originally Posted by trekkor

I saw your post.
It's inconclusive.

I'm not going to respond to it in this thread, however.

You are welcome to pose the question and produce your evidence in another thread and I will engage you...


KT

Here you go:

I Proved to Trekkor the Bible is NOT 100% Accurate!

[trekkor]

Variations in species and developed immunity is NOT evolution.
Different KINDS of dogs, are still dogs.

NO evidence of one species becoming another, let alone a whole string of them ending up with YOU at the end.


KT

[kstar]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

They shouldn't take that leap if they adhere to the rules and ideas of science, but many do.

Personally I think that science should simply stay out of discussions of the origins of life until there are scientific hypotheses that can be tested and proven or disproven, just like science stays out of discussions of theology and the existence of God.

Well, the bold (my emphasis) of your last paragraph seems a bit of an unreasonable request!

From my limited scientific knowledge of abiogenesis (only from what I read) it sure seems like there are all kinds of testing and subsequently papers being published on the subject, just nothing proven yet re that critical step. Seems silly that scientists should stay out of any discussions on the subject until it is proven . . . as long as they are not claiming unproven hypothesis as fact!

Did I speak too soon?

Best,

Kurt

[trekkor]

Originally Posted by kstarnes

I just wanted to say that despite my disagreement with many of your opinions (I'm sure the feeling is mutual!) it is refreshing to have what I think is a reasonable discussion.

Agreed!


KT

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by trekkor

Variations in species and developed immunity is NOT evolution.
Different KINDS of dogs, are still dogs.

NO evidence of one species becoming another, let alone a whole string of them ending up with YOU at the end.


KT

You've got a point there. No one has ever seen a lizard evolve into a bird before...then again, maybe one of the experts here will have a link ready to show just that.

Any instance of a jelly fish becoming a bunny rabbit, or any such thing?

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally Posted by kstarnes

Rick:

I just wanted to say that despite my disagreement with many of your opinions (I'm sure the feeling is mutual!) it is refreshing to have what I think is a reasonable discussion.

Best,

Kurt

Back at ya, bro! And no you didn't speak too soon. If you really look at the literature on abiogenesis, it doesn't amount to abiogenesis at all. Science has found 4 (I believe at last count) "self replicators", i.e. protein structure that produce themselves if given the chance. Well, that's great. What science has not even come close to doing is getting even one of those self replicators to generate itself out of a soup of amino acids. See, THAT would be abiogenesis. Observing that there are compounds in nature that would fit into your puzzle of abiogenesis doesn't say anything to the core issue itself which is getting any of those compounds to spontaneously exist.

[dewolf]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

You've got a point there. No one has ever seen a lizard evolve into a bird before...then again, maybe one of the experts here will have a link ready to show just that.

Any instance of a jelly fish becoming a bunny rabbit, or any such thing?

That kind of statement is ridiculous. Evolution does'nt happen overnight, or in years. It happens over tens of thousands of years. And as it turns out there is a fossil of a flying lizard. Research it.

[kstar]

Originally Posted by dewolf

That kind of statement is ridiculous. Evolution does'nt happen overnight, or in years. It happens over tens of thousands of years. And as it turns out there is a fossil of a flying lizard. Research it.

How about decades?:

Italian wall lizards introduced to a tiny island off the coast of Croatia are evolving in ways that would normally take millions of years to play out, new research shows.

In just a few decades the 5-inch-long (13-centimeter-long) lizards have developed a completely new gut structure, larger heads, and a harder bite, researchers say

Another excerpt:

The transplanted lizards adapted to their new environment in ways that expedited their evolution physically, Irschick explained.

Pod Mrcaru, for example, had an abundance of plants for the primarily insect-eating lizards to munch on. Physically, however, the lizards were not built to digest a vegetarian diet.

Researchers found that the lizards developed cecal valves—muscles between the large and small intestine—that slowed down food digestion in fermenting chambers, which allowed their bodies to process the vegetation's cellulose into volatile fatty acids.

"They evolved an expanded gut to allow them to process these leaves," Irschick said, adding it was something that had not been documented before. "This was a brand-new structure."

Along with the ability to digest plants came the ability to bite harder, powered by a head that had grown longer and wider.

Original paper published in March in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

source: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080421-lizard-evolution.html

Cool.

Best,

Kurt

[dewolf]

Originally Posted by kstarnes

How about decades?:



Another excerpt:



Original paper published in March in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

source: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080421-lizard-evolution.html

Cool.

Best,

Kurt

Awesome. It's incredible how life finds away. If there's a glimmer of hope for life to exist, it usually proliferates.

[trekkor]

What chance is there that the correct amino acids would come together to form a protein molecule?

It could be likened to having a big, thoroughly mixed pile containing equal numbers of red beans and white beans. There are also over 100 different varieties of beans. Now, if you plunged a scoop into this pile, what do you think you would get?

To get the beans that represent the basic components of a protein, you would have to scoop up only red ones—no white ones at all!

Also, your scoop must contain only 20 varieties of the red beans, and each one must be in a specific, preassigned place in the scoop. In the world of protein, a single mistake in any one of these requirements would cause the protein that is produced to fail to function properly.

Would any amount of stirring and scooping in our hypothetical bean pile have given the right combination? No. Then how would it have been possible in the hypothetical organic soup?


KT

[dewolf]

Originally Posted by trekkor

What chance is there that the correct amino acids would come together to form a protein molecule?

It could be likened to having a big, thoroughly mixed pile containing equal numbers of red beans and white beans. There are also over 100 different varieties of beans. Now, if you plunged a scoop into this pile, what do you think you would get?

To get the beans that represent the basic components of a protein, you would have to scoop up only red ones—no white ones at all!

Also, your scoop must contain only 20 varieties of the red beans, and each one must be in a specific, preassigned place in the scoop. In the world of protein, a single mistake in any one of these requirements would cause the protein that is produced to fail to function properly.

Would any amount of stirring and scooping in our hypothetical bean pile have given the right combination? No. Then how would it have been possible in the hypothetical organic soup?


KT

'cause we ain't talkin' about bean soup. And nature is smarter than us.

[Rearden]

Originally Posted by trekkor

What chance is there that the correct amino acids would come together to form a protein molecule?

It could be likened to having a big, thoroughly mixed pile containing equal numbers of red beans and white beans. There are also over 100 different varieties of beans. Now, if you plunged a scoop into this pile, what do you think you would get?

To get the beans that represent the basic components of a protein, you would have to scoop up only red ones—no white ones at all!

Also, your scoop must contain only 20 varieties of the red beans, and each one must be in a specific, preassigned place in the scoop. In the world of protein, a single mistake in any one of these requirements would cause the protein that is produced to fail to function properly.

Would any amount of stirring and scooping in our hypothetical bean pile have given the right combination? No. Then how would it have been possible in the hypothetical organic soup?


KT

Statistics demonstrate to us that your bean pile will have the combination you seek within x number of tries.

[dewolf]

Originally Posted by Rearden

Statistics demonstrate to us that your bean pile will have the combination you seek within x number of tries.

lol, good answer, I never thought of that. Clearly why I'm no part of anyone's brain trust! lol.

[sjf911]

Originally Posted by kstarnes

How about decades?:



Another excerpt:



Original paper published in March in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

source: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080421-lizard-evolution.html

Cool.

Best,

Kurt

LOL, I just happen to have that edition of PNAS by my computer. The article is very interesting and hints at Darwin's finches.
There were two other articles in that edition that were very interesting from an evolutionary pov:
"The evolution of gene collectives: How natural selection drives chemical innovation."
"Evolution of polyketide synthases in bacteria"

[trekkor]

Originally Posted by Rearden

Statistics demonstrate to us that your bean pile will have the combination you seek within x number of tries.

Nope! Not this time.

How does your protien survive?



KT

[kstar]

Some modern, living examples of how flight was probably edit "might have been" acquired (IMO! I am not an evolutionary biologist!) millions and millions of years ago by modern birds.

The "leaping lizard" - not a true flier, but can glide for well over 100':



--------

Flying fish - these things actually flap their wings. I've observed them directly and they are remarkable:




Also add squirrels and snakes to the "gliders". Amazing stuff.

Best,

Kurt

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by kstarnes

How about decades?:

Another excerpt:

Original paper published in March in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

source: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080421-lizard-evolution.html

Cool.

Best,

Kurt

Yes, but they're still lizards. The flying fish are still fish. As Trekkor so keenly pointed out.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by dewolf

That kind of statement is ridiculous. Evolution does'nt happen overnight, or in years. It happens over tens of thousands of years. And as it turns out there is a fossil of a flying lizard. Research it.

When you can show the skeptics a lizard as it gives birth to a bird, or a small furry mammal, or an elephant, or even better yet a puddle of goo spawning life, then you can say you've got ironclad, irrefutable proof.

Flame away.

[kstar]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Yes, but they're still lizards.

Yes, and fish and squirrels and snakes.

What was a bird before it could fly?

The examples show an example of a transitional state for an animal - many many more excellent examples . . .

Some great stuff on whales too on your Google. Very well documented via the fossil record and current skeletal structure that whales were once land animals. Of course, you won't find whales turning into lizards or monk fish.

Best,

Kurt

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by dewolf

And nature is smarter than us.

Is it Intelligent?

As far as i'm concerned, one could view nature as God, and probably not be too far off the mark. At least not any further off the mark than anyone else. lol...

Shrug.