When the revolution comes, I'll be ready.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by tabs

Nothing will beat the 22 LR in dire circumstances. Easy to carry a bunch, readily available and for hunting small game...and even has enough of a deterent to ward off bad people.

Excellent point. I think I'll pick up another 10/22 today just for kicks.

[red-beard]

Yep, need a 10/22, something in .308 and something in 30-06

Those somethings are planned to be for .308 either an M1A or an AR-10

30-06 will be an M1 and a Springfield 1903

Looking for shooters, not safe queens.

[red-beard]

Hey Tabs, good point on the wheel guns. I should get a .357 wheel gun. What would you suggest for a "shooter" ?

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Finally got my M4 completely set up the way I want. .

Looks nice except for the light. I have always been highly critical of that fad, errr, trend.

If you mount the weapon properly, and activate the light, you have just created a perfect point of aim for your enemies to shoot you in the face.

Definitely. Not. Smart.

Laser sights do the same thing, to a lesser degree. This is why the US military uses IR lasers with NVG's, so the stuff we give our troops to help them doesn't actually enable the badguys to shoot our troops in the face in pitch darkness.

Obviously if i was you, i'd lose the light, immediately. Buy yourself a cheap set of Russian NVG's in it's place.

Beyond the light, it looks like a very, very nice M-4, which is a truly great weapon as long as it's properly maintained. Good luck with it.

PS: If anything ever happens in your life where you are involved in a shooting, expect all your firearms related posts and pictures to show up in the hands of the DA, who will then try to vilify you using your own words and images.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by jmshepard

Instead of "revolution", 'round these parts we refer to "when the zombies come".
Jim S.

That's what i always say.

I have Class IIIA body armor with Class IV trauma plates (btw, my GF thoughtfully sewed a class IIA soft kevlar side insert from an older vest i used to have to the crotch area of my Class IV vest. Now that is a good woman!), a Beretta 1201FP Semi-auto riot gun, a custom S&W 9mm and a really nice, sturdy, full-tang short sword for "the day the dead rise". Oh, and about 1000rds of ammo.

LOL.

PS: 40 meters and in, a semi-auto high cap shotgun cannot be beat for effective rate of fire. Each squeeze of the trigger using 3" 00 buck blasts 15 .33 caliber projectiles down range. In 3 seconds flat my Beretta will put in excess of 100 .30 caliber projectiles into the air. And it's perfectly legal.

Try that with an M-4 or AK.

PSS: I would never rely on a .22 rimfire weapon for defense unless i had no other firearm because of the propensity for .22 rimfire ammo to misfire.

[Flatbutt1]

What would a guy need to defend against standard body armor? I have .223, .40 and 12 ga at hand.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Flatbutt1

What would a guy need to defend against standard body armor? I have .223, .40 and 12 ga at hand.

M855/SS109(green tip) .223 will penetrate any soft body armor, or the older US military PASGT hard plate armor with ease.(most likely so will any FMJ .223 for that matter.) Soft armor is only designed to stop handgun rounds. Class IIIA is rated to stop 240gr .44 magnum JSP ammo.

Class IV ceramic plate inserts in soft vests, and the USA's new hard plate "interceptor" vests will stop 7.62x51(NATO) AP rounds.

Do a google, there are websites with charts for what each class is rated for.

[jmshepard]

to really get through armor, the 5.7x28mm (SS90) round for the FN P90 has an edge. It was developed specifically for penetration of body armor. However, I don't know if the civilian version used in the Five-seveN pistol and semi-auto P90 has the same capability.

[m21sniper]

The new "PD" type cartridges have clearly displayed great armor penetration capabilities, but i seriously question the ability of those special purpose type rounds to inflict the sorts of wounds that are likely to incapacitate a target quickly.

Hitting someone with a 5.7 is like hitting them with a seriously downloaded 5.56. The 5.56 has it's fair share of critics in that department to begin with.

[Rick Lee]

I fired a 5.7 last Sunday. Very nice gun, but I don't need another expensive handgun with expensive ammo. My .357SIG's are enough.

[jmshepard]

M21,
The 5.7x28 wasn't designed to be a round for a battle rifle (not that the M16 fills that role) but to provide REMF with a weapon that provides more capability than a pistol but in an arm not as cumbersome as a rifle/carbine. In the short to intermediate distances the round acquits itself well. I did a review of the P90 20+ years ago when FN first introduced the piece. It would of been a good choice for vehicle and aircraft crew.
Jim S.

[jriera]

All, as someone that has been hit twice while wearing body armor (both time with .38 Special while teaching) is an experience that I will not recommend to anyone, hurts like hell, leaves a mark and ribs can/will be broken or sore for a while.

Any cartridge with the 'proper' bullet will defeat almost any body armor and you always have many parts not covered by armor to choose from (that was my 'specialty' during my teaching days).

SS190 for the FiveseveN (ammo not allowed to civilians) do this in 20% gelatin


I do not want to be in the wrong side of a weapon, any weapon, ever again, body armor or not

[pwd72s]

I'm hoping there is never a need to have a revolution...But I will admit that I'll be very reluctant to give up my firearms just because Obama and a lefty Congress says it must be so.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Hey Tabs, good point on the wheel guns. I should get a .357 wheel gun. What would you suggest for a "shooter" ?

Hard to beat a good S&W .357.

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by tabs

You want guns in your trunk that have ammo readily available.

For pistols 22 LR, 38 spl, 357 mag, 44 mag, 380, 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 acp and 45 LC.

For rifles 22 LR, 223, 7.62 X 39, 308, 30/06, 30/30



Nothing will beat the 22 LR in dire circumstances. Easy to carry a bunch, readily available and for hunting small game...and even has enough of a deterent to ward off bad people.

Here I go again...agreeing with Tabs. In a "survival" situation, my choice of caliber would be .22 LR. I'm talking "survival" here...not revolutionary warfare.
Able to take up to deer sized game with accurate shots. I have a pilot friend who carries a S&W .40 caliber glock when he flies his private craft. When I picked him up at the local airport he was wearing it. I asked why. He replied that he wanted a firearm in case of a crash landing in the wild country. After a trip to the range, me taking my old Remington single shot .22, he with his Glock, I do believe I convinced him of the benefits of carrying a "take down" Browning .22 semi Auto rifle and a brick of .22 LR ammo...a much superior firearm for "survival" use.

[jriera]

Mike, a couple of weeks ago I got a Smith & Wesson 625JM in .45 ACP. If you want to see something really nice go to the Smith & Wesson Performance Center page and check the 327's, the 627's and the 629's, don't get scared by the MSRP prices, your gunsmith/dealer can get a much better deal.

Originally Posted by red-beard

Hey Tabs, good point on the wheel guns. I should get a .357 wheel gun. What would you suggest for a "shooter" ?

[campbellcj]

^^^ The 627PC is a gem. Big and heavy, but that is a plus with hot mag ammo.

It's pre-election shopping season for me too...hoping to pick up the latest addition on Wednesday.

[911boost]

Looking good Rick, but I agree, ditch the light. I do like the magazines though.

I have my RRA for the 223, and I love the accuracy of mine, a couple of 12 gauges (Winchester Defender, and an older Rem 870 that I Duracoated urban camo, just to see how the stuff worked).

My new barell, stock, trigger, and a couple of other parts should be in this week for my 22-250 that I am building. It is based on a Savage action, and will be a pretty sweet bolt gun when its finished. I'll take some pictures. Its primary purpose will be prairie dogs, buts 22-250 is a fast little devil...

Bill

[Rick Lee]

Flatbutt, yesterday I had to do the mandatory 8-hr. class for my AZ CCW. The instructor was a cop and was telling us about his home defense weapons. He said he refuses to use any handguns for home defense, for fear of overpenetration since he has two small kids. He said he practices neck shots with his 12 ga., since even the criminals with body armor usually don't have their throats covered.

I shot Jordi's 5.7 and .45 wheel gun last weekend. Very impressive, but I don't need any more expensive ammo guns like a 5.7. The .45 ACP wheel gun, however, got me thinking. Man, you can sneeze and that hammer goes down! I wasn't able to shoot it well, but my only other wheel gun is a .44 mag., which is overkill for anything but bears. I'm thinking of getting something a little easier that the wife will eventually be able to shoot.

My M4 is strictly for fun shooting and if/when the marauding mobs come to my neighborhood. I don't think the tac-light is meant for anything but close-quarter shooting.

BTW, my CCW instructor told us yesterday about a case where a guy was killed when a "home invader" caught his night sights' reflection in a mirror in the dark. Yikes!

[Rick Lee]

M21Sniper, we talked a lot yesterday about criminal vs. civil liabilty when involved in a defensive shooting. I really have no worries about criminal liability, as I'd never even draw unless totally legally justified. I'm a hothead normally, but I'm very mild mannered when armed.

The civil liability thing has me a little worried though. Even in the states with civil liability pre-emption laws in legally justified shootings, there's no guarantee. And you're looking at financial ruin in most circumstances, though that's still better than being dead. Sure, I'd probably do ok with a jury in AZ, but you never know how it would go with a judge. Bottom line is to not say a single word other than, "I'd like to call my attorney" when the cops arrive after gunplay has commenced. Our instructor yesterday told us to not even tell the 911 operator who did the shooting, just that police and fire were needed and that was it. He told us of a guy who was involved in a very justified shoot, but got nailed because he had, in a fit of guilt and doubt, told the dying guy he was sorry he'd had to shoot him. And the DA used that against him. BTW, our instructor said that in AZ, you will only lose the gun you used in the shooting and only until it's all cleared up. It will be returned and none of your other guns will be taken unless you're charged.