Wind Power

[Mule]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Man, that must have been one hell of a fight...

Maybe in the past. Nowadays Tigers handle Gators every fall.



Seriously, look on utube. Lions & tigers kick crocodile ass as need be. I saw a tiger swim out & take a carcass from a crocodile.

[TheMentat]

[kach22i]

TheMentat, that was no 3-Mile Island.

[Bill Douglas]

In New Zealand we have quite a lot of wind farms, well, quite a lot of farms in general. The wind turbines seem quite efficent and one turbine can produce enough electricity for a suprisingly large number of houses.

I like the idea of the wind turbines they have in Scotland. They are just little things on the roof or in the back yard, about the size of an umbreller (sp). These produce enough electricity to heat the hot water cylinder or to run a small heater.

[john70t]

I heard in Germany, people with windmills can sell back the extra power to the utilities at 7x the normal selling rate, a good incentive.
Here, the utilities won't even pay standard market rates for sell-back.

Just think, localized communities could begin becoming mini power-brokers and the "socialist" centralized distribution system of electricity, like oil, would have competition.

Competition is good in capitalism. No? And isn't the role of government to ensure fair competition?

[red-beard]

So John, electric companies should be forced to buy power at 7x the rate? Who do you think actually pays for that?

[RWebb]

Gas and Oil are certainly subsidized.

How many times have we had wars in the Middle East recently? Would we care that much if they didn't have O.I.L.??

[idontknow]

I remember reading this article a month ago about Shell pulling out of a wind power array project.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/01/london_array_shell_pullout/

It got me to thinking about how big would an array have to be to power the US.

That array would produce 1,097 GWh per year on average when completed and takes up 94.6 sqmi.
The US consumed 4,053,000 GWh in 2006
If we build an array to supply all of the current US electrical needs, it would take up all of Texas and New Mexico. It would be a total of 1 million wind turbines.


edited: wrong/mismatched calculations from a reference site on Earths size caused me to get some strange results and I ran with them before checking them.

[Lil Black Car]

You see the wind turbines ans solar panels all over Germany. They are also much more serious about recycling and will not take your trash if it is not split up. We need to get serious about this stuff but...
Isn't about 90% of the ANWR open to exploration and drilling, but the oil companies still complain that it is the remaining part that they need access to? I would support a stay at home day (or two or three) to help the oil companies to see that they need to stop sticking it to us. We also need to look at American car companies who have refused to make economical cars. My first car was a 76 Catalina with a 400 cid V8 and it would get more than 400 miles on a 20 gallon tank. Things have not improved in gas milage.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by red-beard

So John, electric companies should be forced to buy power at 7x the rate? Who do you think actually pays for that?

The beficiary would certainly be the comsumer.
-The massive Ca/NE blackouts in the recent past would be better containable because of reduced centralized loading,
-the US would be less resistant to foreign pressures and politics,
-polluting energy-sourcing would be reduced,
-and localized independance (i.e.:states rights) should be a Republicans wet-dream.

But you're right, progress costs money. I wish I was prez with 10 trillion to work with....
Reference "Peak-oil" and the "Hubbert report".

[David]

Another electric power generator employee here.

Nuclear, I'm all for it. NRG Energy, the company I work for, just applied for two new units in Texas. I understand that a couple of other companies are close to application for new units too.

Wind has its place but it has its problems too. Ask any grid operator what they think about wind power. How would you like a supply of electricity that can (and does) stop without warning? We have to keep gas plants running at low, very inefficient loads just to catch these drops in power. A few thousand megawatts isn't too bad, but much more than that and you'd have almost all the gas plants idling along just in case the wind stops.

BTW, the vast majority of gas and coal used in power generation is produced in the US. Unfortunately a lot of our vast coal reserves (some estimate we have 500 years worth) are high in sulfur, so we import some that has lower sulfur.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by 125shifter

Unfortunately a lot of our vast coal reserves (some estimate we have 500 years worth) are high in sulfur, so we import some that has lower sulfur.

What do you think of the gasification of coal?

Who is doing it?

http://www.zetatalk.com/energy/tengy11a.htm

Article by E. L. Clark.

Coal gasification is a process for converting coal partially or completely to combustible gases. After purification, these gases - carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, hydrogen, methane, and nitrogen - can be used as fuels or as raw materials for chemical or fertilizer manufacture. From the early 19th century until the 1940s almost all fuel gas distributed for residential or commercial use in the United States was produced by the gasification of coal or coke. In the 1940s the growing availability of low-cost natural gas led to its substitution for gases derived from coal. Interest in coal gasification has been renewed, however, with recent predictions that natural gas reserves in the United States will begin to diminish by 1980. At present, except for by-product gas from the manufacture of coke, no coal gasification plants of any appreciable output are in operation in the United States. Many plants, however, are in operation in other countries that have no reserves of natural gas or petroleum.

[Les Paul]

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/environment/2008-05-15-pickens-wind-turbines_N.htm

I started this a couple of weeks ago and didn't get a nibble. Because they are talking about building well over 1,000 turbines besides the ones Boone is going to build like 125shifter says there are going to be many idling coal and gas generators sitting there with bored operators.

[David]

Originally Posted by kach22i

What do you think of the gasification of coal?

Who is doing it?

http://www.zetatalk.com/energy/tengy11a.htm

I don't know enough about it, but our company has one in the plans. It's my understanding that the Nazi's were doing it in WWII because they didn't have enough oil reserves. Of course the technology is vastly improved but still very expensive and still in its infancy.

My concern is what do you do with all the stuff that's extracted. I think it's more cost effective to clean up the exhaust after the coal is burned, but I guess it's getting expensive and difficult to clean it up as much as is now required.

We put SCR's (selective catalytic reduction) on our 4 coal plants in Houston at a cost of a few billion dollars. It's nice driving by them now that you don't have a yellow haze over the area.

SCR's reduce the NOx and SO2 but don't do anything for CO2 and mercury which we soon will have to reduce.

My take on electrical power is that we'll have to rely on a mix of what we have now. As emission requirments get tighter and fuel costs get higher, the older, less efficient units will be decommisioned making way for cleaner, more efficient units.

One of the biggest problems with wind or any new units is transmission capacity. It's very difficult to get new right of way land to build new transmission corridors, so most new plants are located at old sites or next door to them. Unfortunately wind farms aren't near existing plants so they're limited by existing transmission lines and the cost of new lines can be more than the wind farms or plants.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by john70t

The beficiary would certainly be the comsumer.
-The massive Ca/NE blackouts in the recent past would be better containable because of reduced centralized loading,
-the US would be less resistant to foreign pressures and politics,
-polluting energy-sourcing would be reduced,
-and localized independance (i.e.:states rights) should be a Republicans wet-dream.

But you're right, progress costs money. I wish I was prez with 10 trillion to work with....
Reference "Peak-oil" and the "Hubbert report".

Anyone who buys electricty will be paying for it. If you put in a windmill, then your next door neighbor, who can't afford one, pays more, since the power utility has to charge others to make up for the extra costs from you.

I just priced up a 7.5KW wind turbine with all the needed parts.

$56,685

http://www.bergey.com/

[Nathans_Dad]

Wind power is great, as long as it isn't in sight of Kennedy's vacation home...then it is outlawed. Wind power is great as long as there isn't a chance of the Wild Three Spotted Hootenanny running into a turbine, then the environmentalists protest.

Personally I think all forms of alternative energy should be put front and center. Start expanding our nuclear capacity, fund research into incorporating solar technology into shingles for roofs (it's already there), fund wind farms, fund tidal power, etc.

I guarantee you the enviro-wackos will throw a fit on every measure for one reason or another. Seems to me they would welcome it as an alternative to oil with it's pollution both on burning and transport (Exxon Valdez).

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by kach22i

What do you think of the gasification of coal?

Who is doing it?

http://www.zetatalk.com/energy/tengy11a.htm

GE has had 3 pilot plants, one operating since the late 1970's. The main advantage is that with todays Gas Turbine technology, you can potentially better the 42% thermal efficieny of the best Fossil Steam plants. Gas Turbines fired by Natural gas go up to 60% thermal efficiency.

The biggest problem with Coal gas is that the 2 useful burnable substances are hydrogren and carbon-monoxide. Both are problems! I designed gas detection systems for leaks on 2 of the pilot plants, in the mid 90's.

GE finally bought the TEXACO division which was working on coal gas. They are located here in Houston, headquartered in the Post Oak area.

[David]

I love the ads from Green Mountain Energy. They advertise that they are all renewable energy which is impossible. Meanwhile the big electric generators produce way more renewable power than Green Mountain.

[jyl]

Environmentalists in CA have tried to get a law requiring new home developments to use solar shingles. I think a watered-down version did pass, but only required homebuilders to offer it as an "option" starting in 2011.

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

Wind power is great, as long as it isn't in sight of Kennedy's vacation home...then it is outlawed. Wind power is great as long as there isn't a chance of the Wild Three Spotted Hootenanny running into a turbine, then the environmentalists protest.

Personally I think all forms of alternative energy should be put front and center. Start expanding our nuclear capacity, fund research into incorporating solar technology into shingles for roofs (it's already there), fund wind farms, fund tidal power, etc.

I guarantee you the enviro-wackos will throw a fit on every measure for one reason or another. Seems to me they would welcome it as an alternative to oil with it's pollution both on burning and transport (Exxon Valdez).