Insight into Exxon

[Tobra]

Sorry John, I don't care enough about it to look, I am just sayin'...

[jyl]

Okay, then I can declare with perfect confidence that you are wrong, nyah nyah.

Seriously, I do think the claim is not correct. I don't think the govt gets much of anything from gasoline sales, besides the gasoline taxes discussed.

Indirectly, I suppose the govt gets more income tax on the oil companies, which is likely offset by the lower profits of, and hence lower income tax on, all the businesses that consume gasoline.

Come to think of it, the excise tax is per gallon, not per dollar spent on gasoline. So high gasoline prices don't actually get the govt "more" revenue. The decline in US gasoline consumption actually costs the federal govt some tax revenue, partly offset by the states that charge sales tax on gasoline purchases.

So, the conclusion remains - the only ones who really benefit (financially) from "higher" gasoline prices are the oil companies.

Originally Posted by Tobra

Sorry John, I don't care enough about it to look, I am just sayin'...

[Rsquared]

Originally Posted by jyl

Not correct.

US gasoline consumption/day = 388.6MM gal/day = 141.8BN gal/yr
Federal gasoline excise tax $0.184/gal
0.184 * $141.8BN = $26.1BN Fed gas tax/yr
vs
Profits of US integrated oil companies in 2007 = $127.99BN

http://www.eia.doe.gov/basics/quickoil.html
http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/gasolinepricesprimer/
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/103679.pdf

Granted, if you include total state taxes on gasoline, you can roughly double that $26.1BN. And the $127.99BN integrated oil company profit includes $45BN from Royal Dutch Shell and BP, some of which (maybe 1/3?) was earned outside the US.

So make those adjustments if you like.
$26.1BN * 2 = $52.2BN total federal, state, local tax on gasoline
vs
$127.99 - ( $45BN * 0.33 ) = $112.9BN total integrated oil company profit less amounts earned ex-US
bb
Still not even close.

Disdain for the govt is fine but let's get the numbers right.

What about income taxes? That will get the govt above 70% of oil co profits and the govt doesn't have to do all that messy drilling and stuff.

[jyl]

I addressed this above, briefly.

The answer, I think, is that additional income taxes the US govt gets from XOM are offset by lost income tax that the US govt does not get from the buyers of XOM's gasoline.

Here is how it works.
1. Every additional $1 that XOM gets for selling a gallon of gas, is an additional $1 that the buyer has to spend on that gallon.
2. If the buyer is a business, then that additional $1 reduces its profit (think truckers, airlines, construction companies, anyone who uses gasoline or transportation in their business - they are all hurting now). Lower profit for the buyer means lower income tax that the buyer pays the US govt.
3. If the buyer is a consumer, that additional $1 spent on gasoline is $1 he doesn't spend at retailers, restaurants, and other businesses that sell clothes, food, home remodeling, Porsche parts, etc (high gas prices are one reason why US retail sales are so bad right now). The lower revenue for those businesses means lower profits and thus lower income taxes that those businesses pay the US govt.

Make sense? The extra $1 that XOM gets for its gasoline doesn't come from nowhere - it gets drained from another part of the US economy. $1 in XOM's pocket is $1 out of someone else's pocket, and the additional profit made by and taxes paid by XOM is offset by profit not made and taxes not paid by someone else.

By the way, don't think that XOM's income taxes all go to the US govt. Actually very little of it does. In 2007 XOM reported $29.8BN of income tax on $70.5BN of pretax income - but only $5.1BN of that income tax was paid to the US federal and state govts, the other $24.7BN of income tax was paid to foreign governments.

Originally Posted by Rsquared

What about income taxes? That will get the govt above 70% of oil co profits and the govt doesn't have to do all that messy drilling and stuff.

[Mule]

I heard the absolute best just a little while ago. We are the only nation on earth not exploiting every source of energy at our disposal. While the socialists in congress are dragging oil execs to DC to be grilled and that whacked out b!tch, Maxine Waters is telling guys 1000x smarter than her that she should be in charge of the companies they run, Russia is giving oil companies tax breaks so they will do more exploration & increase production. Now wtf is wrong with this picture?

But we'll have freakin' polar bears! They'll have electricity & gas, but we'll have polar bears & snail darters, & bicycles!

[tabs]

I need my dividend checks from Exxon and Cheveron.

[David]

Originally Posted by Mule

Russia is giving oil companies tax breaks so they will do more exploration & increase production. Now wtf is wrong with this picture?

Actually Russia's been pulling a huge bait and switch with outside companies on oil and energy production. They get the companies in with tax breaks and then after production starts, they fine them to the tune of 100's of millions of dollars and threaten prison time to company officials for supposed environmental issues.

If we wait for the rest of the world to use up their oil reserves and then tap ours when the cost is even higher we'll make out like bandits. Of course some new energy source could develop making oil less valuable, but I think that's unlikely in next 50 years or so.

[jyl]

Russia is in the process of re-nationalizing its energy industry. The Kremlin basically controls the industry. "Tax breaks" are illusory when the govt seizes your assets. Further, the govt takes most of the profit from oil prices >$30/bbl. These policies actually discourage companies from exploring new fields. Russian oil production has stopped growing and is starting to decline.

E.g., http://www.rigzone.com/news/article.asp?a_id=52792

Originally Posted by Mule

I heard the absolute best just a little while ago. We are the only nation on earth not exploiting every source of energy at our disposal. While the socialists in congress are dragging oil execs to DC to be grilled and that whacked out b!tch, Maxine Waters is telling guys 1000x smarter than her that she should be in charge of the companies they run, Russia is giving oil companies tax breaks so they will do more exploration & increase production. Now wtf is wrong with this picture?

But we'll have freakin' polar bears! They'll have electricity & gas, but we'll have polar bears & snail darters, & bicycles!

[Sunroof]

One cent per gallon is taken everytime you purchase gasoline to fund the Underground Storage Tank fund in each state. Several states over the years have abused their funds like their lottery's. The fund is actually self supporting and takes care of UST gasoline releases and critical aquifer cleanup. Their are thousands of stations across the country that have been shut down by independant owners because they could not afford the up-front 10K deductible most states require before the fund kick's in. Up to one-million bucks of state money can be allocated for each facility clean-up, which rarely happens, but the owner is relieved of very high cleanup expenditures in the long term. Old steel tanks not cathodically protected, no leak detection, single fuel line's, bad fuel dump practices, etc, etc, have over time contributed to the massive impacts to groundwater supplies to sole-source aquifers. It is a major environemtal issue.

These small station owners, make their living on beer, tobacco and snack sales....not on gas!
Sad, going quickly are the fuel-station repair facilities, where I recall my parents would take the caddy in for oil changes and brake work. That is where the dollars were made.

Ever since the Exxon Valdez incident years ago, I have refused to gas up at Exxon and that will remain so until my foot can no longer touch a gas pedal....................

Bob
73.5T

[Mule]

From your site:
"The state funnels most of the profits from oil prices above $30 a barrel through export and extraction taxes into its Stabilization Fund. Russian oil companies pay 24% income tax and then production taxes based on the market price of oil. As a result the companies are left with about 10% of their upstream profits. Still, both Lukoil and Rosneft are better off than some since they refine 40% of their output."

That 10% number sounds familiar. Plus, Comrade Maxine is telling them she would nationalize, given the chance.

[The Gaijin]

Mexican production has fallen off for many of the same reasons.

[jyl]

Maxine is posturing for the cameras, she has no chance of nationalizing the US industry.

Putin, on the other hand, is not posturing, he is doing it.

So I wouldn't hold Russia up as an example of what to do.

Originally Posted by Mule

From your site:
"The state funnels most of the profits from oil prices above $30 a barrel through export and extraction taxes into its Stabilization Fund. Russian oil companies pay 24% income tax and then production taxes based on the market price of oil. As a result the companies are left with about 10% of their upstream profits. Still, both Lukoil and Rosneft are better off than some since they refine 40% of their output."

That 10% number sounds familiar. Plus, Comrade Maxine is telling them she would nationalize, given the chance.

[jyl]

Latest forecasts I read are for solar panel pricing, in $/watt, to decline -40% over the next two years. Conventional energy continues rising in price. Solar is becoming more economically viable each year. But the bulk of the solar industry (profits, jobs) is developing in Europe and Asia, not in the US.

[Mule]

Originally Posted by jyl

Maxine is posturing for the cameras, she has no chance of nationalizing the US industry.

Putin, on the other hand, is not posturing, he is doing it.

So I wouldn't hold Russia up as an example of what to do.

Right now, I wouldn't hold us up as an example either. And the solution is soooo simple:
http://www.americansolutions.com/

Sign the petition!

[Hugh R]

Did anyone mention the state and local sales taxes that are imbedded in the price of gas? In El Aye, its 8.25% hidden in the price. I think, but I don't know for sure, that it's a tax on top of the other state and Federal taxes, not on the sales price of the gas it self. So if gas is $4.00/gallon, about $0.28 is sales tax that you don't even see.

[jyl]

Yes, state/local taxes included in one of my prior posts.

Originally Posted by Hugh R

Did anyone mention the state and local sales taxes that are imbedded in the price of gas? In El Aye, its 8.25% hidden in the price. I think, but I don't know for sure, that it's a tax on top of the other state and Federal taxes, not on the sales price of the gas it self. So if gas is $4.00/gallon, about $0.28 is sales tax that you don't even see.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by jyl

Not correct.

US gasoline consumption/day = 388.6MM gal/day = 141.8BN gal/yr
Federal gasoline excise tax $0.184/gal
0.184 * $141.8BN = $26.1BN Fed gas tax/yr
vs
Profits of US integrated oil companies in 2007 = $127.99BN

http://www.eia.doe.gov/basics/quickoil.html
http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/gasolinepricesprimer/
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/103679.pdf

Granted, if you include total state taxes on gasoline, you can roughly double that $26.1BN. And the $127.99BN integrated oil company profit includes $45BN from Royal Dutch Shell and BP, some of which (maybe 1/3?) was earned outside the US.

So make those adjustments if you like.
$26.1BN * 2 = $52.2BN total federal, state, local tax on gasoline
vs
$127.99 - ( $45BN * 0.33 ) = $112.9BN total integrated oil company profit less amounts earned ex-US

Still not even close.

Disdain for the govt is fine but let's get the numbers right.

horsepuckey.
On a $4 gallon of gas in California, we pay around 69 cents a gallon in taxes. When you add up the federal, state, and sales tax it's qute a bit on money.
Then you add the income taxes for the oil company, the taxes on every single barrel of oil that is pulled from the ground or imported, and all the countless other taxes and fees etc, the government is making one hell of a lot more off every gallon that the oil companies are. Saying otherwise is complete rubbish.