Vets Mend Fences with Fonda

[BeyGon]

Originally Posted by RWebb

Not at all. YOu may want to stay far away from the law.

or you can go look at what the S Ct. thinks about the matter.

JF was in no way guilty of treason.

Aiding and Abetting?

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by RWebb

Not at all. YOu may want to stay far away from the law.

or you can go look at what the S Ct. thinks about the matter.

JF was in no way guilty of treason.

Hey Clueless, what she did was exactly treason according to the definitions supplied by mule. She aided the enemy during time of war.
You lost this one, maybe you should stick to blindly defending obama. You're not very good at blindly defending jane.

[pwd72s]

giving comfort to...

[sammyg2]

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

That POS did more to cause us to lose that war than any other person I can think of.

You could very well be the least educated person on the Vietnam War I've ever encountered.

Ever hear of these two guys Johnson and McNamara?

Sammy, you're a smart guy. Pick up Dereliction of Duty: Johnson, McNamara, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Lies That Led to Vietnam by McMaster. Read it. It will change your mind.















But honestly guys, I'm disappointed. 3 pages over 3 days of hating Jane Fonda in the quarterly "I hate Jane Fonda" circlejerk is LAME and you guys are SLACKING.

There should be at least 6 PAGES of "I hate Jane Fonda" by now, so let's get jerking a little faster! You can do it!

[pwd72s]

Ahhh, LBJ. You damned near got me started. But do keep in mind it was the revered JFK who first sent "advisors" over there...

[sammyg2]

On November 21, 1970 she told a University of Michigan audience of some two thousand students, "If you understood what communism was, you would hope, you would pray on your knees that we would some day become communist." At Duke University in North Carolina she repeated what she had said in Michigan, adding "I, a socialist, think that we should strive toward a socialist society, all the way to communism. " Washington Times July 7, 2000

On July 18, 1970, the People's World, the West Coast's Communist Party publication, carried a telephone interview with Fonda in which she said: "To make the revolution in the United States is a slow day by day job that requires patience and discipline. It is the only way to make it. . . . All I know is that despite the fact that I am one of the people who benefit from a capitalist society, I find that any system which exploits other people cannot and should not exist."

Fonda made the following statement at the University of Texas: "We've got to establish a Socialist economic structure that will limit private profit-oriented businesses. Whether the transition is peaceful depends on the way our present governmental leaders react. We must commit our lives to this transition ...... We should be very proud of our new breed of soldier. It's not organized but it's mutiny, and they have every right." Karen Elliott Dallas Morning News December 11, 1971

In March 1971, Fonda traveled to Paris to meet with National Liberation Front (NLF) foreign minister Nguyen Thi Binh. According to a transcript that was translated into Vietnamese and back to English, Fonda told Binh at one point: "Many of us have seen evidence proving the Nixon administration has escalated the war, causing death and destruction, perhaps as serious as the bombing of Hiroshima."She likewise supported Huey Newton and the Black Panthers in the early 1970s, stating "Revolution is an act of love; we are the children of revolution, born to be rebels. It runs in our blood." She called the Black Panthers "our revolutionary vanguard", and said "we must support them with love, money, propaganda and risk."

"I am not a do-gooder, I am a revolutionary. A revolutionary woman." 1972

The Wall Street Journal (August 3, 1995) published an interview with Bui Tin who served on the General Staff of the North Vietnam Army and received the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam on April 30, 1975. During the interview Mr. Tin was asked if the American antiwar movement was important to Hanoi's victory. Mr. Tin responded "It was essential to our strategy" referring to the war being fought on two fronts, the Vietnam battlefield and back home in America through the antiwar movement on college campuses and in the city streets. He further stated the North Vietnamese leadership listened to the American evening news broadcasts "to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement."
Visits to Hanoi made by persons such as Jane Fonda, former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and various church ministers "gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses." Mr. Tin surmised that "America lost because of its democracy; through dissent and protest it lost the ability to mobilize a will to win." Mr. Tin further advised that General Vo Nguyen Giap (Commanding General of the North Vietnam Army) said the 1968 Tet Offensive was a defeat.

The military defeat of North Vietnam after the Tet Offensive of 1968 became a political victory for North Vietnam because of anti-war demonstrations and the sensationalism of the news media. The North Vietnamese interpreted the U.S. reaction to these events as the weakening of America's resolve to win the war. The North Vietnamese believed that victory could be theirs, if they stayed their course.

From 1969 until the end of the war, over 20,000 American soldiers lost their lives in a war that the United States did not have the resolve to win. The sensationalism by the American news media and the anti-war protests following the 1968 Tet Offensive gave hope to Communist North Vietnam, strengthening their belief that their will to succeed was greater than ours. Instead of seeking a successful resolution at the Paris Peace Conference following the disastrous defeat of the 1968 Tet Offensive, they employed delay tactics as another tool to inflame U.S. politics. This delaying tactic spurned further anti-war demonstrations. Those who sensationalized their reporting of the war and those who supported anti-war demonstrations are guilty of giving our enemy hope. Because of their actions, they must share partial responsibility for those 20,000 + Americans deaths.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

On November 21, 1970 she told

Sammy, read the book. The war was lost in 1965.

[pwd72s]

You see, Sammy...Shaun is trying to say that communism/socialism is GOOD. It's only failed in the past because the wrong people were running things...

[BeyGon]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

Ahhh, LBJ. You damned near got me started. But do keep in mind it was the revered JFK who first sent "advisors" over there...

No, a little hijacking here,
Ike had 700 adivsors there, by mid 1962 JFK had 12,000 "advisors"
By the end of the year LBJ had 15,000 there
December 65 LBJ had 200,000 troops there
End of 66 LBJ had 400,000 troops there
End of 67 LBJ had 500,000 troops there
The high point was the end of 68 when LBJ had 540,000 troops there.

[pwd72s]

Didn't Ike pull out when the French did?

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

Ahhh, LBJ. You damned near got me started. But do keep in mind it was the revered JFK who first sent "advisors" over there...

Actually Eisenhower sent in the first batch...

Oops, didn't see the earlier post on this.

[BeyGon]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

Didn't Ike pull out when the French did?

We weren't there when the French were, they got beat at dienbienphe May 7th, 1954, the French wanted Ike to use bombers to hit the guns Uncle Ho had in the mountains around their fort but Ike didn't do it.
Ike sent money and help to train the ARVN in 1955

[Dottore]

You guys with the JF hard on are forgetting one key thing:

Vietnam was a war that you should never have been in in the first place. US involvement in that conflict was wrong and immoral, and history has clearly judged it as such.

JF, and the anti-war movement of which she was a part, should be seen as focusing domestic opposition to the war, shortening the war, and ultimately reducing the bloodshed that would have happened had the war continued to drag on.

The re-unification of Vietnam was a matter of historical necessity. The US propping up of the corrupt puppet regime in Saigon was a foolish mistake that cost many lives needlessly.

I applaud everyone that was active in the anti-war movement at the time. They were the ones who made the difference.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Sammy, read the book. The war was lost in 1965.

According to someone who wasn't there, who you seem to revere as a god. He isn't.
Here's an interesting quote from the memoirs of General Nguyen Vo Giap, a general in the North Vietnamese army (who was in charge of the The Battle of Dien Bien Phu where France got their butts kicked out of Vietnam and was also THERE),

"What we still don't understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi. You had us on the ropes. If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready to surrender. It was the same at the battle of Tet. You defeated us. We knew it. We thought you knew it. But we were elated to notice that your media was definitely helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could in the battlefield. We were ready to surrender. You had won." ,

they had basically lost the war after the TET offensive and did not have the ability or defend against a US offensive. They were shocked that we didn't attack when they were so weak. They were shocked that we gave up and ran away when we were so close to winning and they were so close to surrender.

See, they were there, fighting the war while your expert Mr. McMaster was still in grade school. Your expert was still in school in 1992 and he knows more about it than anyone. So the next time you suggest I don't know anything about Vietnam, the next time you think all the answers are in a book written by some kid WHO WASN'T EVEN FREAKING THERE, think again.

A very good friend of mine and an engineering mentor was there also. We've talked about it many times. See he was "drafted" into the south Vietnamese army when he was 14. He was wounded with shrapnel and received a bullet wound before his 16th birthday. His version of what was going on was much different than yours, or Mr McMaster's. He felt betrayed by the US people, not the Soldiers. He could not understand why the protesters and celebrities would do much to help the enemy who were so evil and did so much harm to so many.
My friend escaped Vietnam when the US troops were forced to run away by our own liberal cowards. It took him 4 years to make it to the US. He arrived with absolutely nothing, working as a laborer on a freighter for passage. He has sold everything he had, he traded his shoes for a little bit of food.
He's a very successful senior engineer now, an American citizen, and his oldest daughter teaches medicine at a very well known major medical center in California.
He's a very good man with a good mind and caring heart and what he tells me is not what you say. So don't give me any crap about how the war was over in 1965. I'm not buying it.

[Rick Lee]

Dottore, how many people willingly and knowingly give aid and comfort to the enemy in time of war and make themselves a propaganda tool when they agree with that war? By your standard, anyone who opposes a war should be given a free pass to actively work against their native country. And since the U.S. is always the bad guy in your eyes, you must think treason is actually patriotism. This fits perfectly with you views on statuatory rape too.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by Dottore

You guys with the JF hard on are forgetting one key thing:

Vietnam was a war that you should never have been in in the first place. US involvement in that conflict was wrong and immoral, and history has clearly judged it as such.

I applaud everyone that was active in the anti-war movement at the time. They were the ones who made the difference.

Sorry bucko but you are dead wrong. It matters not about the war, it was already started.

Once the war started what Hanoi Jane did was treason, period. She deserved to go to jail for what she did.

Bet that someone like you would applaud something like this. We can only hope that someday you open your eyes and learn the truth. Its not difficult to tell that you are not a Vet...

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

According to someone

Ask FOG about the book.

[sammyg2]

General Giap was second in charge of the entire freaking country, second only to Ho Chi Minh.
I'd say he has some personal knowledge, as opposed to your expert.
Sitting in a university writing crap that is based on your reading of other people's crap that was written in a university, that was plagiarized by someone else sitting in a university is not knowledge. It is academic diarrhea and is all too prevalent.

According to CNN:
Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap is perhaps the most important figure in the early history of communist Vietnam -- with the exception of Ho Chi Minh. At the end of World War II, Ho named Giap commander in chief of the Viet Minh forces fighting French colonial rule. Giap orchestrated the defeat of the French at the battle of Dien Bien Phu in 1953 and remained minister of defense of the newly independent Democratic Republic of Vietnam. He was the chief North Vietnamese military leader in the subsequent war against U.S. forces.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

General Giap

Ask FOG about the book.