Deal gone bad... not sure how to handle it

[notfarnow]

About 7 weeks ago my friend and I ordered sails for our 22' sailboats. We negotiated a package deal for a very good price. My friend had to do some back & forth as he decided exactly what he wanted, so when it was all finally sorted out he had it all billed (~$2500) to his Visa, and I paid him for my sail.

I ordered:
-Furling genoa in Silver Dacron with white UV strip
-CDI roller furler

My friend ordered:
-Furling genoa in white dacron with blue UV strip
-CDI roller furler
-mainsail
-Blue boom cover

He was supposed to send out the roller furlers right away, but forgot to. No big deal, because we both ended up having a LOT more work to do on our boats and haven't launched yet. The sails were supposed be be delivered in 4 weeks, but took 7. Again, not a huge deal in the end, but could have been an issue if we'd been waiting for the items in order to launch.

Anyway, because they were large packages, we had them shipped to Maine (from New York), and drove across the border to pick them up on Friday.

When we collected the packages at the shipping wharehouse, we found:

-My friend's sails are perfect, but his boom cover is missing
-My sail was done in white dacron, not silver.

The sail is really nicely made, and I got a good deal on it.... but it's the wrong color.

I emailed the sailmaker that night:

We drove to Maine after work today to pick up our sails and furlers.
I was surprised and disapointed to find that my sail was done in white dacron, instead of silver... despite very clear instructions.

Two weeks before I hope to launch, and I'm left with a sail very different from the one I wanted, ordered and paid for.
Jake

He replied at ~3AM:

The white Dacron is the only one available at this time but if you wish I can refund your money when you return the sail as far as quality is concerned , you should have no concerns since silver is extremely rare and whit is extremely common. if you look at our eBay ad you will see that we say that there is no difference in price between the two and we say "when available)". It is not very different than what you ordered and I resent your implication that you were ripped off.Just send the sail back for your refund and i would appreciate the furler back as well because it was a very reasonably priced PACKAGE DEAL

My response:

Wow, that's an unfortunate response to a legitimate complaint.

I agree that it was a "very reasonably priced package deal", and the sail seems to be very well made. I certainly wasn't implying that you "ripped me off", and I regret that my email was interpreted that way.

My issue is that I ordered and paid for a sail made with silver dacron, and that's not what I received. If you were out of silver dacron, I would have expected an email letting me know, so I wouldn't have been suprised when I opened the package. I would have ordered a blue UV strip, or perhaps even waited until you had silver dacron back in.

A little communication goes a LONG way, especially when doing a long-distance transaction.

Jake

He replied:

Blue sumbrella sun covers cost more, we charged [name deleted] more for his although the sail was actually smaller.

My last email to him:

Had it been communicated to me that the item would not be delivered as I had requested and paid for, I would have gladly paid more for the blue sumbrella in order to get a sail I'd be happy to look at for the next 10+ years.
Jake

Anyway, I'm torn about what to do.

Sending it all back would cost ME ~150, and then I'd be without a sail for the rest of the summer.

However, the whole deal was done on my friend's CC, and he still has the boomcover missing. I don't want to create a situation where the sailmaker doesn't send my buddy his items.

If it was mid-winter I'd be more likely to send it back and deal with the complications & hassle, but I'd really like to just get sailing again and maybe I could live with the "plain" sail.

It is a good sail, and it was a good price, but it's really gnawing at me.... it's not what I ordered. This was a "custom" made sail I waited 7 weeks for, not something I just picked up off the shelf.

My wife thinks I'm too picky and my expectations are too high. Am I being a fuss-a$$? Should I just live with it?

[TerryBPP]

Adding the word "disappointing" in your 1st email would have put me off a bit. Always make phone calls for 1st contact to avoid this.

But I wouldn't be happy about a different color either.

[Steve Carlton]

I'd be pissed. This guy seems to have no concept of how to conduct business. By waiting 7 weeks for his sail, you've been prevented from getting it in time elsewhere. Is it possible to ask him to put a rush on and deliver what you ordered real quick? Can you threaten legal action, making him liable for someone else to provide what you ordered at whatever reasonable cost it takes to get it ASAP?

[trap]

I agree that is disappointing - unfortunately it is also not unusual.

What is unusual, however, is the price. $2500 for all of that is almost unheard of. Sunbrella isn't cheap these days - nor are brand new sails. I honestly can't imagine how they could have sold three new sails and two furlers for that money - even on 22 footers.

The sailmaker handled that badly - but you did get a great price. You could always have a local sailmaker add the blue sacrificial Sunbrella over the winter - it wouldn't be a big deal to do.

Overall, despite the crappy behavior of the sailmaker, I'd be resolved in the knowledge that it was all had for a great price. Two and a half boat bucks is a score for all of that.

Good luck with it.

[cashflyer]

I spotted the problem:

... eBay ...

[the]

I would have called, rather than e-mail. E-mail is inherently more confrontational than a telephone call, studies have shown that e-mail tends to escalate conflicts. It's a weird thing.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

You ordered silver, you got white. It's not what you paid for and he didn't deliver what he said he would - end of story.

If he couldn't get the silver, he should have made a phone call to get your okay for a substitution before proceeding.

You are entitled to either a credit on a mutually-agreed-upon value of the silver versus white material OR a full money-back/return negation of transaction, whichever you prefer. Depends what's going to make you happier here. Personally I'd stick it to the guy for being a prick and demand the full $2,500 back and return the sail. But you may decide that a simple credit will satisfy things.

Either way, I think you're entitled to something here and I wouldn't be the least bit shy about going after it. Guys like this frankly p1ss me off - bait-and-switch bull****. Either that or simply lazy, non-communicative, unprofessional schlockers. I can't stand either.

[BGCarrera32]

Yup, eBay.

The guy offered you a refund so send it back and be done with it.

I'm amazed people will surf eBay to find a *deal* and then a spend *hours* going back and forth about something that isn't right. You've admitted you won't be happy looking at it for 10+ years, so send it back and be done with it. Next time call the guy direct.

I'm not saying you're in the wrong per say, but take your taps and move on before you don't see a refund at all.

[notfarnow]

Originally Posted by TerryBPP

Adding the word "disappointing" in your 1st email would have put me off a bit. Always make phone calls for 1st contact to avoid this.

Then I'm glad I didn't send my first draft, which said "shocked and pi$$ed"
You must have thin skin for a guy selling cars!

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

I'd be pissed. This guy seems to have no concept of how to conduct business. By waiting 7 weeks for his sail, you've been prevented from getting it in time elsewhere. Is it possible to ask him to put a rush on and deliver what you ordered real quick? Can you threaten legal action, making him liable for someone else to provide what you ordered at whatever reasonable cost it takes to get it ASAP?

He's offered a full refund, but it would cost me ~$130-150 to ship it down there and I would have no sail all summer.

Originally Posted by trap

What is unusual, however, is the price. $2500 for all of that is almost unheard of. Sunbrella isn't cheap these days - nor are brand new sails. I honestly can't imagine how they could have sold three new sails and two furlers for that money - even on 22 footers.
...
Overall, despite the crappy behavior of the sailmaker, I'd be resolved in the knowledge that it was all had for a great price. Two and a half boat bucks is a score for all of that.

The CDI FF2 furlers are ~$400 retail
The sails worked out to ~500-550 each.

Yeah, a really good price for what look like nicely made sails. But I feel like I ordered the soup of the day, and they substituted it for a steak without asking me if I'd like it well done or rare.

Originally Posted by cashflyer

I spotted the problem:
eBay

The seller advertises on ebay, and that's how I found him. But all communication was through email. In the end, I wish it had been through ebay... I think he would have been more concerned about feedback.

Originally Posted by the

I would have called, rather than e-mail. E-mail is inherently more confrontational than a telephone call, studies have shown that e-mail tends to escalate conflicts. It's a weird thing.

100% true, in retrospect.

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

You are entitled to either a credit on a mutually-agreed-upon value of the silver versus white material OR a full money-back/return negation of transaction, whichever you prefer. Depends what's going to make you happier here. Personally I'd stick it to the guy for being a prick and demand the full $2,500 back and return the sail. But you may decide that a simple credit will satisfy things.

The white & silver are teh same price.

Part of the problem is that the whole order was lumped together with my friend's sails... my end was ~1k. (One "boat buck", as trap put it. I like that!).

He's offered me a refund, but the shipping cost & lost sailing time makes a bad deal worse. A credit would be ideal, but realistically the sailmaker's margins were tight on these sails.

I'm leaning towards what trap says... I got a good deal and will probably just have to live with the colour

[notfarnow]

Originally Posted by BGCarrera32

Yup, eBay.

The guy offered you a refund so send it back and be done with it.

I'm amazed people will surf eBay to find a *deal* and then a spend *hours* going back and forth about something that isn't right. You've admitted you won't be happy looking at it for 10+ years, so send it back and be done with it. Next time call the guy direct.

I'm not saying you're in the wrong per say, but take your taps and move on before you don't see a refund at all.

It wasn't an ebay deal. I found him on ebay but all communication was by phone and email.

It would be worth my while to just send the sail back, but shipping the sail, furler & extrusions would cost ME ~$150.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Maybe a dumb thought - but is it possible to have the sail dyed/colored?

Even if they're the same price, perhaps you could work out a mutually acceptable credit value because it's not what you ordered. . . I still think you're 100% in the right here. At the very least, this guy is not putting "customer first" and as such, probably deserves a little slap for it.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Maybe a dumb thought - but is it possible to have the sail dyed/colored?

Even if they're the same price, perhaps you could work out a mutually acceptable credit value because it's not what you ordered. . . I still think you're 100% in the right here. At the very least, this guy is not putting "customer first" and as such, probably deserves a little slap for it.

[Steve Carlton]

Originally Posted by notfarnow

He's offered a full refund, but it would cost me ~$130-150 to ship it down there and I would have no sail all summer.

Not sure you understood my post. I'm wondering if he's legally obligated to mitigate your damages- i.e. you get what you ordered from somewhere else and he pays the difference. Or, preferably, he delivers on a rush basis what you ordered and waited 7 weeks for. He should cover the return shipping, too. But he doesn't seem to have a clue about what the right thing to do is.

I don't see anything wrong with your e-mails to him, BTW. They seem calm, direct, and honest.

[charlesbahn]

If as you say its a really well made sail, I'd just keep it and use someone else next time. After the expense and aggravation of shipping it back, being without the sail, etc, etc. you're better off with the sail in hand. You didn't get exactly what you wanted but the package deal wasn't a rip off either, so financially you're probably ahead.

Just my .02

[Rot 911]

Jake you appear to already be leaning towards keeping the sail. You got a good deal. You don't want to lose a fun summer of sailing. It is not the end of the world. Keep the sail. Go sailing. Have fun.

[notfarnow]

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

Not sure you understood my post. I'm wondering if he's legally obligated to mitigate your damages- i.e. you get what you ordered from somewhere else and he pays the difference. Or, preferably, he delivers on a rush basis what you ordered and waited 7 weeks for. He should cover the return shipping, too. But he doesn't seem to have a clue about what the right thing to do is.

Perhaps I'm legally entitled to have him make it right, but I don't really want to start chasing after someone who doesn't seem to be concerned with what's "right". Plus, I've done the small claims route before and it's a lot of time & effort... certainly not worth my time for ~1k.

My last small claims case was around this same #$%@ boat, and in that case I did have other businesses correct ~$3k of damage and missing items, and the seller had to pay.

FWIW, that case centered around the "as delivered" condition of the boat... the seller dismasted the boat while sailing it to our place, and left it tied to a wharf with the broken mast & torn sails hanging in the water. Then a few months later it was vandalized in my driveway during a stike, and had to be repainted.

I subsequently named the boat Ms Fortune.

[notfarnow]

Originally Posted by Kurt V

Jake you appear to already be leaning towards keeping the sail. You got a good deal. You don't want to lose a fun summer of sailing. It is not the end of the world. Keep the sail. Go sailing. Have fun.

Yep. Maybe that's the best route.

I'll probably just cause myself more hassle and headaches by pursuing it. If it was a local seller I'd probably just stomp around and TALK REAL LOUD after work, but this guy's in Barker, NY and it's not worth the hassle of emailing & calling.

I probably would have dropped the issue if he'd initially just said "You're right, I should have emailed you, I apologize"

[MRM]

It's just color. Learn to like the color and have a long and happy sailing career with your boat.

Here's the problem with making a big deal about it, in addition to the cost, time and hassle. I represent manufacturers and sometimes retailers. They make mistakes and sometimes get into situations like this, which I sometimes have to get them out of. There is a difference between sending someone the wrong item and sending them the right item but the wrong color. One is a breach of contract; the other might be just poor customer service.

If the value between white and silver is the same, and it's a custom unit, the doctrine of economic waste might protect the seller, so that your measure of damages is the difference between the value of the goods as ordered and the value of the goods as received. If there is no difference, your measure of damages is either nothing, or a nominal amount that compensates you for having to accept the wrong color.

In either case, from a personal point of view, it would be a shame to waste a perfectly good sail because it was the wrong color, just to make an identical one in the right color. Keep the sail and tell the story every time someone asks you how you got the only silver sails in the marina. Put the good karma into the bank.

[craigster59]

Jake, Just ditch your silver boat shoes and go out and buy some white ones and everything will be "matchy-matchy".

[notfarnow]

Originally Posted by MRM

If there is no difference, your measure of damages is either nothing, or a nominal amount that compensates you for having to accept the wrong color.

The problem is I ordered a silver one so that I wouldn't have a white genoa & white main (my main is ~3 years old) that don't match because one is older than the other. That is precisely what I was trying to avoid, and why my friend ordered TWO sails at once.

FWIW, I had a white genoa I could have had recut for the furler, but opted to buy this silver sail instead.

Originally Posted by MRM

Keep the sail and tell the story every time someone asks you how you got the only silver sails in the marina.

Ha! That's what I had been hoping to do, but got a white sail instead.

Either way, I'm going to let the issue drop with a final, terse email.