What was all that talk about bullet size last week?

[Rick Lee]

This is not for the faint of heart and I wouldn't open it at work, though it's not porn. Warning. Very gruesome photos, but an interesting report on ballistics and shot placement.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/documents/officer.pdf

This kinda makes me think twice about trusting my life to .40 S&W, which is my main carry caliber in my SIG P239. Hell, this guy took a bunch of .223 hits and still fought the handcuffs. I may need a .308 for when the revolution comes.

[Mo_Gearhead]

Gotta love those cute tattoos:

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Live by the gun, Die by the gun
____________________

One less POS sucking oxygen, good riddance.

[VincentVega]

A buddy was trying at a recent ak last week shooting at an old brake rotor. .223 put a nice ~1mm dent in the rotor. 7.62x39 destroyed the rotor. When the zombies come, I'll stick with my ak.

Considering most encounters are quite close, I'm not sure why cops dont stick with shotguns. How many 300+ yard shots does a copy take? I'm not an expert, but I know what I would want in a gun fight.

[jriera]

One more reason for my trusty 45 as a carry weapon and my shorty .308

[Rick Lee]

While this guy needed to die, I think a Taser might have been a better choice for subduing him once it was obvious the bullets hadn't hit any internal organs and he was going like the Energizer Bunny.

[Jeff Higgins]

Only 1" of penetration and the .40 S&W did not fail??? Wow.

Hunters have known this for a long, long time: hollow point ammunition in hand guns is a sad joke. All the fancy names conjured up by the marketing folks will never change that. Black Talon, Golden Sabre, Hydra Shock, and on and on. All of the impressive photos of perfectly mushroomed bullets will never change that. Hollow points are simply ineffective in hand guns.

By their very nature, hand guns are extremely limited in power compared to rifles. For example, the vaunted .44 mag, in its heaviest loadings. struggles to match the muzzle energy of the .223/5.56 NATO. Considered an extremely powerful hand gun, the .44 mag can't keep up with what most of us consider a "varmint" caliber in a rifle. The .223 is not even a legal deer round in most western states (although some eastern states now allow it, but their deer are half the size of ours).

The .44 mag is legal for hunting most big game. It is, however, wholly ineffective for doing so with hollow point bullets. The bullet of choice is a good, hard cast lead bullet. Essentially a solid, it will not expand, even when hitting heavy bone. And it will provide full penetration on the largest of game. I have driven 250-300 grain .44's and .45's clear through full grown mulies, and a couple of caribou. A could of them lengthwise; brisket to butt hole. No hollow point will ever do that.

Full penetration, with an exit wound, is how slow moving (relative to rifle bullets) hand gun bullets kill. Forget "shock" value; there isn't any. Even the highest velocity handgun rounds (very light bullets in magnum revolvers) seldom break 1400 fps; hardly enough to induce shock, even with an expanding hollow point. Best to use a heavy for caliber bullet, cast hard or fully jacketed, and strive for full penetration. Semi wadcutters are best, cutting a full caliber hole through tissue similar to a paper punch. That is the kind of trauma that hand guns kill with; expanding hollow points driven at "high velocity" don't cut it. Never have, never will.

[Mule]

Baddest of the bad for home defense.
http://www.magsafeonline.com/

Try 2500 fps .44 mag

http://www.magsafeonline.com/prices_specs.jsp

[Mo_Gearhead]

QUOTE: "That is the kind of trauma that hand guns kill with; expanding hollow points driven at "high velocity" don't cut it. Never have, never will.'
__________________

Completely agree!

From my Colt Government .380 ... to my S/W Model 29 .44 mag., I use solid core/round nose or SWC bullets. If you have hollow points in handguns for protection, (IMO), you are on the wrong path men!

[Rick Lee]

For cops and defensive carry, hollow points are a compromise due to fear of overpenetration. I'm not sure what would be worse - prolonging a shootout because the perp couldn't be taken down with one or two hollowpoints or risk having your FMJ bullets go through him and hit an innocent bystander.

A few months ago I was shooting one of those steel spinner targets that was rated for up to .44 mag. My .44 mag. made some marks on it, but my .223 almost destroyed the thing. I can't imagine what either of those rounds would do to human flesh. Actually, having viewed those photos, we know what .223 can do. And there's a high chance of overpenetration with it.

[Rick Lee]

I guess this didn't hold up too well in a real world situation.

[Mule]

MAGSAFE SWEPT THE STRASBOURG TESTS
The now -famous Strasbourg Tests put MagSafe on the map. To Summarize what nearly everyone already knows, over 600 live French Alpine goats (their bodies are very much like humans) were shot under controlled conditions: no anesthetic, same shot placement form animal to animal, and with blood pressure and heart rate monitors to determine the Incapacitation Time (measure of how long it took a goat to cease functioning after the single shot was delivered).

MagSafe Ammo worked - better than anything else. Tests were done without MagSafe's knowledge, so some versions tested were the lowest powered. For example, two types of .380 ACP are offered; the .380 Defender, a 60-grainer at 1,360 fps in a Colt Mustang; and the .380 MAX (designed for a big city's undercover drug agents) with a 52-grain slug sizzling along at 1,620 fps in the Mustang.

The Defender has 247 ft-lbs of energy, while the MAX load has 303 ft-lbs. The Defender's lower velocity hampered stopping power, resulting in a Average Incapacitation Time (AIT) of 7.12 seconds. That's the average time for five different goats, each shot once with the MagSafe 60-grain Defender.

However - and this is where things get interesting - there wasn't a jacketed hollowpoint bullet in ANY caliber which dropped the goats faster than MagSafe's weakest .380 load!

MagSafe's .380 beat every .45 ACP slug, every 10mm, every 9mm (including police-only ammo), every .40 caliber - no matter who made it - Cor-Bon, Remington, Glaser and HydraShok.

In fact, MagSafe's lowest-powered .380 ACP load had an AIT faster than the best manstopper of all time - Remington's .357 Magnum 125-grain JHP!

Average Incapacitation Times for all other MagSafe's calibers were in the 4-second range, and MagSafe topped the tests in every caliber but .357 Magnum (a prototype Quik-Shot beat by a fraction of a second), and .38 Special, where Glaser won by .04 seconds. Had the .38 Special tests been done in a 2-inch barrel, MagSafe would have topped that test, too.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Mule

Baddest of the bad for home defense.
http://www.magsafeonline.com/

Try 2500 fps .44 mag

http://www.magsafeonline.com/prices_specs.jsp

Mule,

Have you ordered from them? They want a fax with my CC number...the ammo looks great, btw.

[Jeff Higgins]

Mule, I've read about those tests over and over again in the various gun rags. What stands out to me is the fact that they left out the most effective hand gun bullet design of all time - the hard cast semi wadcutter. Fired from a large caliber (.44 or .45) hand gun, even at moderate velocity, nothing even comes close in effectiveness.

Rick, I hear concerns about over penetration all the time. I think they are over blown. How about just plain missing the target? That is a far greater danger to anyone down range. It seems the more these guys shoot, the more they miss. What did they fire here, something like 107 rounds in less than three minutes? And only 17 hits? Unfortunately, that seems about par in police shootings. Seems to me that if they had to shoot less, because their ammo was more effective, there would be fewer stray rounds whistling off down the street.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

What stands out to me is the fact that they left out the most effective hand gun bullet design of all time - the hard cast semi wadcutter. Fired from a large caliber (.44 or .45) hand gun, even at moderate velocity, nothing even comes close in effectiveness.

Jeff,

I am very appreciative of your gun savvy...what is a hard cast semi wadcutter?

I have a .45 and a BHP.

[Rick Lee]

I used to reload SWC's exclusively, as they make such perfectly round holes in paper targets. Looks like a hole puncher. I've never seen a gelatin test with SWC though.

[charleskieffner]

any of you that carry concealed and DO NOT CARRY ROUNDS THAT YOUR LOCAL COPS(city,state,county) CARRY ARE OPENING YERSELF UP TO A MURDER CONVICTION AND OR A CIVIL CONVICTION ON THE CIVIL SIDE!!!!!



THINK ABOUT ******* DAT JUAN!


anything..................ANYTHING! that a slime ball lower than whale POO, lower than DIATOMS(under whale POO) scuzz ball POS defending attorney can use to construe to the jury of yer peers(yeah right!) that you are a GUN NUT, will get you convicted so fast it will make yer head spin and yer POO HOLE PUCKER!

if not convicted on criminal side the POS bad guys family will sue you into the STONE AGE so fast for WRONGFUL DEATH that youll be so broke youll be pushing a shopping cart down main street with shell stickers on it wearing your tattered porsche t-shirt dumpster diving for yer meals!


DO NOT CARRY WAMMO BLAMMO KILLER DILLER BULLETS FROM HELL!

DO NOT CARRY SOME FULL RACE REVOLVER/SEMI-AUTO with lazer sight grips/extra capacity mags/sling/night scope.................etc.


or YOU WILL BE LABELED A GUN NUT AND REGRET THE DAY YOU WERE BORN!


a coupla years back a correct legal justifiable CCW guy(teacher/dad of multiple kids-regular joe here) was CONVICTED of MURDER using a 10mm semi with MCNASTY ROUNDS! he was labeled a GUN NUT and labeled USING EXCESSIVE FORCE to stop the situation. this made 60 minutes. guy he shot was total mental case with R.O.'s against him , prior crap with cops, a BONIFIDE FRICKING NUTCASE whose dogs attacked this guy and the nut case advanced on guy in threatening manner and good guy shot him! this case presently i think either before az supreme court or has gone now to 9th circut court.

none the less the good guy is in the joint for carrying MONGO OVERKILL 10 mm with MCNASTY ROUNDS!

and you thought mcnasty rounds were good!

federal hydrashock for my 9mm/.45's simple ramp polish all came from factory w/nite sights. no extra cap mags. gun perfectly clean!!!!! why clean? so scumbag attorney cant say i SHOOT ALOT and im a GUN NUT!

guys you have to be smarter than this if yer gonna carry!

[TerryH]

Here's some ammo reading on the semi wad cutter, ie SWC.

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=27

doh! okay, posted the link 3 hours later! lol

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by charleskieffner

any of you that carry concealed and DO NOT CARRY ROUNDS THAT YOUR LOCAL COPS(city,state,county) CARRY ARE OPENING YERSELF UP TO A MURDER CONVICTION AND OR A CIVIL CONVICTION ON THE CIVIL SIDE!!!!!

I dunno know about that. My CCW instructor is a cop with MCSO and he said to specifically carry what the cops carry - HydraShoks or GoldDots. Let's face it, if you have use your gun, justified or not, you're gonna lose it for a while. I think the best strategy is to avoid getting into a shooting that could be viewed as anything other than saving your own life. My CCW instructor also said to keep your mouth shut and not tell the cops anything until your lawyer there. He said even cops are told to keep quiet when they're involved in a shooting until their lawyer gets there.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Jeff,

I am very appreciative of your gun savvy...what is a hard cast semi wadcutter?

I have a .45 and a BHP.

"Hard cast" simply means anything harder than pure lead. Lead is comonly alloyed with tin and/or antimony to harden it. It both casts better, filling out the mold better, and tends to stay in one piece without expanding when striking the animal (or man). Wad cutters are flat ended bullets meant for target shooting. They punch a full caliber hole in the paper, making them easier to score. They look like this:



They tend to be unsuitable for game, in that most of the bullet is in the case, severely restricting powder capacity and, therefore, velocity. They are seated deep to cover and protect all of those lube grooves.

So, wanting to take advantage of the "cutting" action of the wadcutter, but wanting to mitigate its shortcomings on game, an Idaho cowboy by the name of Elmer Keith designed a "semi" wadcutter back in the '30's. It still has the flat front, albeit smaller in diameter. Much of it protrudes outside of the case, providing greater powder capacity. It has only two grooves; the front one for crimping, the back one for bullet lube. The flat nose kind of "slaps" (think flat hand on water vs. a fist) harder than a round nose, and the second shoulder in front of the crimp groove cuts a full caliber hole, just like a wadcutter. Plus, that shoulder lines up in the forcing cone as the bullet moves forward from the case, providing increased accuracy. Anyway, here is what they look like:

[Seahawk]

Thanks.