What was all that talk about bullet size last week?

[charleskieffner]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I dunno know about that. My CCW instructor is a cop with MCSO and he said to specifically carry what the cops carry - HydraShoks or GoldDots. Let's face it, if you have use your gun, justified or not, you're gonna lose it for a while. I think the best strategy is to avoid getting into a shooting that could be viewed as anything other than saving your own life. My CCW instructor also said to keep your mouth shut and not tell the cops anything until your lawyer there. He said even cops are told to keep quiet when they're involved in a shooting until their lawyer gets there.

my verbage screwup. ie. ONLY CARRY WHAT COPS CARRY! PERIOD!

[charleskieffner]

yep yer gonna have to walk up to a cop and ask him what he carrys! explain that you hold a CCW and just wanted the same as him. no big deal.

another example. carry a concealed sawed off shot gun with breneke slugs a OO buck mixed in for good measure and see where your court case goes. kinda like me going outside with a HK-91 with a 30 rounder full of hollow points to stop someone trespassing on my property or stealing cactus or his dog pooping on my property...............not good if it goes bad and you have to shoot, despite guys dog lunging at you.

low key double tap chest, double tap head, repeat on chest, if not down shoot for femoral artery and groin cuz hes wearing armor!

same as ricks ccw class! empty gun, when finished and threat is gone, place gun on ground if crowd around, if not place in holster w/NO AMMO and call your LAWYER! no talky to cops! PERIOD! then smoke a carton of smokes as you come down from your journey thru HELL!

the movies portray it much different, in real life it AINT GONNA BE FUN FOR QUITE A WHILE UNTIL COPS SORT EVERYTHING OUT!

post traumatic stress frequently follows. even if justfiable shooting.

[RPKESQ]

Seahawk, Jeff is correct with his hard cast semi wadcutter information. That is the preferred hunting load in revolvers. I use them in all my revolvers for defensive purposes too.

But for a unmodified semiauto in most cases, you need a jacketed bullet. I use the Hornady 9MM 124 GR FMJ/FP ENC and 45 CAL 230 GR FMJ/FP ENC. They work very well, reliable feeding and great penetration. I have turned up some 147 gr. 9mm Hornady style bullets from copper rod stock that I use in my 9mms, I like the heavier bullet weights. Federal makes a 185 gr, Jacketed SWC, but feeding is touchy in many semiautos.

I want through and through wounds in anything livivng I shoot at. Period.

[Jeff Higgins]

Yup, semi wadcutters are pretty much a revolver only solution. Autos can be made to feed them, some more easily than others, but it takes a competent gunsmith that is familiar with the difficulties involved. The full jacket, flat point designs that RPKESQ mentions are a great alternative for the auto loader, and will feed in most of them. They provide the same effect - that initial "slap", full penetration (as in with an exit wound), and virtually a full caliber wound channel. You guys using the autoloaders should look long and hard at them, and forget those hollow points.

Even you revolver shooters that don't cast your own can find these in factory loads. Look for "silhouette" loads in .357 and .44 mag; they generally have FMJ flat points. The silhouette shooters like the flat point and sharp edges because they dig into the steel silhouettes, getting more "traction" on their surface, so they are more likely to knock them down. These behave, for all intents and purposes, like a hard cast semi wadcutter as far as their terminal ballistics.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Seahawk, Jeff is correct with his hard cast semi wadcutter information. That is the preferred hunting load in revolvers. I use them in all my revolvers for defensive purposes too.

But for a unmodified semiauto in most cases, you need a jacketed bullet. I use the Hornady 9MM 124 GR FMJ/FP ENC and 45 CAL 230 GR FMJ/FP ENC. They work very well, reliable feeding and great penetration. I have turned up some 147 gr. 9mm Hornady style bullets from copper rod stock that I use in my 9mms, I like the heavier bullet weights. Federal makes a 185 gr, Jacketed SWC, but feeding is touchy in many semiautos.

I want through and through wounds in anything livivng I shoot at. Period.

Thanks RPKESQ and Jeff...very informative thread.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

This is not for the faint of heart and I wouldn't open it at work, though it's not porn. Warning. Very gruesome photos, but an interesting report on ballistics and shot placement.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/documents/officer.pdf

This kinda makes me think twice about trusting my life to .40 S&W, which is my main carry caliber in my SIG P239. Hell, this guy took a bunch of .223 hits and still fought the handcuffs. I may need a .308 for when the revolution comes.

The problem is not caliber, it's shot placement coupled with the intangible will of your target to survive and continue the fight, perhaps even after several lethal hits.

I cannot possibly be clear enough on this one: The problem is not caliber related.

It's shot placement.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Mule, I've read about those tests over and over again in the various gun rags. What stands out to me is the fact that they left out the most effective hand gun bullet design of all time - the hard cast semi wadcutter. Fired from a large caliber (.44 or .45) hand gun, even at moderate velocity, nothing even comes close in effectiveness..

This is an interesting statement, but i'm entirely sure you cannot prove it. Which makes it an opinion, bordering on pure hyperbole.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Rick, I hear concerns about over penetration all the time. I think they are over blown. How about just plain missing the target? That is a far greater danger to anyone down range. It seems the more these guys shoot, the more they miss. What did they fire here, something like 107 rounds in less than three minutes? And only 17 hits? Unfortunately, that seems about par in police shootings. Seems to me that if they had to shoot less, because their ammo was more effective, there would be fewer stray rounds whistling off down the street.

I find your views to be way out in left field in this issue.

WC/SWC and FMJ/solid projectiles leave a wound profile akin to that of an ice-pick, and they are extremely prone to over-penetration. Against heavy boned and skinned animals, absolutely, solids are the way to go, but a human aint a Mule deer.

Please show me one police dept or military unit in the US today that reccomends their officers or soliders use SWC or Solids, or that states they are clearly superior vs JHP's (or even as good, specifically WRT civilian personal defense applications).

IMO in most cases high velocity JSP type ammunition is probably (possibly?) the best compromise round for civilians(which includes cops) desiring deep penetration and good 'stopping power'. JSP delivers penetration and expansion in between that of a solid vs a hollowpoint. For some reason you cannot get quality JSP ammo for some calibers, though i'm sure it could be handloaded. 147gr 9mm+p JSP ammo would be a pretty versatile round indeed, but again, JSP is just not very popular as defensive ammunition. You see a lot of JSP pistol hunting rounds though, which should tell us something, or a few things.

The frangible ammo that mule points to is very destructive in tissue, but historically it struggles in tactical barriers, and is also often claimed to be significantly less accurate. It is also extremely expensive. ($5 a round is common)

In most cases, ie excluding freak occurrences (or armor), 9mm JHP will definitely kill bad guys a-plenty as will 5.56 FMJ provided the shot is placed properly.

I think anyone that runs out to buy a bigger-badder caliber is missing the point.

I would sum up this discussion with the statement that EVERYTHING is entirely secondary in importance to shot placement, and the next most important factor is the will to fight in your opponent.

Edit to add: People have been shot and kept coming even after multiple .50BMG hits, multiple Shotgun blasts, multiple military caliber musket ball hits, and i've even seen an account once of an enemy soldier getting hit by a non-detonating 40mm round and staying on his feet and continuing to run for some distance. There is no magic round, there is no magic caliber, any caliber and any projectile can fail, and given enough time and opportunity, at some point all of them will fail.

Shot placement is the only thing you can control. A .22LR to the eye socket is 100,000,000x better than a .30-06 to the biceps.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Mule,

Have you ordered from them? They want a fax with my CC number...the ammo looks great, btw.

Magsafe is a well established company, they've been around for quite a while, and should be safe to give credit card info to.

I've used their ammo in the past, but never on anything living.

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Jeff,

I am very appreciative of your gun savvy...what is a hard cast semi wadcutter?

I have a .45 and a BHP.

Very similar to FMJ, but without the jacket, and featuring a pronounced shoulder to punch highly visible holes in PAPER.

A SWC is a target shooting round. No hunter i have ever known in my life hunts with SWC (unless it's all he's got), and certainly no cop i have ever known would knowingly carry it in their service firearm.

A historical example: The .38 Special RNL(Round Nose Lead) cartridge is almost exactly what Jeff is advocating if you are a .38 Special user- a heavyweight, slow moving, non-expanding bullet.

It's nickname was the "Widowmaker", because of the numbers of cops killed after shooting perps full of holes with the stuff.

Soon after the obviousness of the failure of .38 RNL for police use, the US Treasury Department specified a "Treasury load", a .38 Special 110gr HP at +P velocity was introduced IIRC by a company named Super Vel, and was univerally considered to be vastly superior in actual effectiveness to the std velocity 158gr RNL police round.

However, if you are inclined to use non-expanding stuff, i would recommend high velocity military FMJ in it's place (though only if you were dead set on using non-expanding projectiles. Either JSP or JHP is drastically superior for personal defense IMO). The Winchester NATO "Q" round in 9mm, for instance, is 124gr FMJ to +P velocity, and actually rivals some .357 magnum loadings in energy, and it will DEFINITELY penetrate into the internals of an unarmored target. Several AK-47 armed Iraqi's were actually decisively dispatched by US troops using their M-9 sidearms during the thunder runs into Baghdad. But be advised, this stuff WILL go through interior household walls like they're not even there.

PS: It is very much worth noting that at this point in time we actually don't even really know all the mechanisms at play wrt terminal ballistics, nor which of them is more important than the others, if any are at all. The two known wound mechanisms are TWC(temp wound cavity) and PCC(Permanent crush cavity). Contrary to popular belief bullets do not cut through tissue in most cases, but rather they crush it. There have been a few hollowpoint designs that claim to actually deliver a cutting mechanism(thereby greatly increasing bleeding). PMC Starfire and Winchester Black Talon both make that claim. Other potential wound mechanisms like hydrostatic shock and 'energy dump' are hotly contested among 'experts', and there may or may not be anything to them at all. I suspect the former has some impact, and the latter very little at all, if any.

I personally use cor-bon 115gr 9mm+P in my pistol. (I have used Glaser frangibles in the past, but i shot the ones i had, and never replaced them, as they cost about $5.00 a round)

[azasadny]

Good thread and especially timely now that I'm carrying my Sig P239 in 9mm and evaluating ammo to use.

[Jeff Higgins]

Sniper, you are usually pretty well informed regarding firearms, but in this case, you are entirely mistaken. How many game animals have you killed with revolvers? I have personally killed over a dozen mulies, two caribou, and two antelope with the sixgun. I've lost track of the number of coyotes I've killed with one in the last 30+ years. I have been with others who have taken their elk with one, although I have not been that fortunate (yet). To a man, each and every one of us killed every head of game we have taken with our sixguns with semi wadcutter bullets, cast ourselves. Either the original Keith style (pictured on the first page of this thread) or the newer LBT (Lead Bullet Technology) from Veral Smith, who hails from Idaho, (as did Keith).

I suggest you obtain a copy of Veral's book Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets, or Keith's book Sixguns by Keith, or Hunting for Hangunners by J. D. Jones and Larry Kelly (of Magna Port and SSK fame). Check out John Taffin's, Ross Seyfried's, Brian Pearce's, and other's writings on handgun hunting. These are the acknowledged experts, the most experienced men, in the field of handgun hunting. Every single one of them uses and recommends (exclusively) hard cast semi wadcutters for big game hunting with sixguns. They argue over the merits of the original Keith vs. the newer LBT, but that is the extent of their disagreement. They are unanimous in their recommendation of the hard cast semi wadcutter.

The design of the semi wadcutter is meant to cut a nice, clean, permanent hole in tissue, just like it does in paper. Unlike a round nose (the .38 Special lead round nose is not even close to what I'm advocating, by the way - its failings are legend, and actually led to the development of the far more effective semi wadcutter), the wound channel does not close up behind it. That, along with dead straight, deep penetration, is the key to its effectiveness. With enough weight and velocity, they will almost always exit on any shot on any North American game. That is precisely what we want; two holes through which the animal will lose oil pressure. I have only recovered one such bullet from a game animal; a caribou I shot on the Tagagawick River east of Kotzebue, Alaska. My first 300 grain LBT hit it in the brisket and exited next to its rectum. He was dead at that shot, he just didn't know it. In my excitement to keep him from getting to the river, I shot him again. It wasn't necessary. As he staggered, my second broke his right shoulder, hit the inside of the left scapula, turned up his neck, and finally stopped just behind his left eye. Over five feet of penetration, after breaking his shoulder. Every other hard cast semi wadcutter I have ever shot at any animal has exited. Every one of them died fairly quickly.



Anyway, like I said, you could not possibly be more wrong about the effectiveness of these bullets on game. Police departments are another matter. They are forced to conform to the whims of politicians, administrators, and others who seem to have concerns that override that of officer safety and ammunition effectiveness. Neither the police, nor the military, have ever been at the forefront of ammunition development. Hunters and sportsmen have always lead the way on that front, not bound by the dictates of unrelated concerns.

[m21sniper]

Jeff i edited my post before you posted to clarify that yes, for big game, solids are DEFINITELY the way to go. (as you may have noticed after i make a big post i tend to spend the next 20+ minutes correcting and expanding my original post.)

For smaller 'big game' JSPs are the preferred choice, and yes, i have shot many white tails in the woods of Pennsylvania in my lifetime. (though not in many years).

240gr JSP .44 mag works extremely well on White Tails, i assure you. (So to does .30-30 Win JSP)

And people aren't even as rugged as white tails, hence....JHPs.

There are a LOT of dead people created every year from JHP's in America amigo. Every single police and military law enforcement unit in America uses JHP's for a reason. US SpecOps use JHPs for many roles, as do US Snipers. It's not a matter of "it's all politics."

They definitely work. Not 100% of the time, but that has as much to do with the target as anything else, and in reality, any failure to stop is a failure in shot placement. Ie, user error.

PS: Semi wadcutters were designed for target shooting, they were not designed with their effect in soft tissue in mind at all. SWC is target practice ammunition. And even as good as they are for big game, solids can and do fail to stop too.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by jriera

One more reason for my trusty 45 as a carry weapon and my shorty .308

Hard to beat those two calibers, 30.06 as well...

[m21sniper]

The original US 7.62 NATO loading mimicked the specifications of US M-1 .30 cal ammuniton.

They are ballistic twins.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

"Hard cast" simply means anything harder than pure lead. Lead is comonly alloyed with tin and/or antimony to harden it. It both casts better, filling out the mold better, and tends to stay in one piece without expanding when striking the animal (or man).

Sea,

Many reloaders make their own bullets and mix normal lead with lead tire weights, resulting in a harder mix. You can vary things in the mix to get what you want and tailor it for your needs.

Joe

[Rick Lee]

Guys, did you notice that several of the .40 S&W rounds penetrated less than one inch? Look at that gelatin test I posted and then consider how it performed in the field. The perp was wearing a very thick coat too. That's why I usually carry a P229 in .357SIG in cold weather. But if .40 S&W fails to penetrate enough to expand, then it really doesn't matter how well you place the shot. Unless you hit him between the eyes or in the "apricot", such low penetration is not gonna cause much of a wound cavity or any serious trauma to vital organs. Sure, it might be fatal if he doesn't get to a hospital within the hour. But in this situation, seconds counted.

[Mule]

When I used to hand load for my .357 I used lubed, 158gr, Kelly swc's over 17.5 gr's of 2400. My buddy dropped a white tail with one from a Ruger snub nose. He had sat down to take a break & up strolled the deer. He started to reach for his rifle & the deer looked up. So he just pulled his snub nose & dropped the deer. My "personal protection" rounds were 19.5 grs of 2400. Very loud & fiery. Reloading manual max was 15 grs.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Jeff i edited my post before you posted to clarify that yes, for big game, solids are DEFINITELY the way to go. (as you may have noticed after i make a big post i tend to spend the next 20+ minutes correcting and expanding my original post.)

For smaller 'big game' JSPs are the preferred choice, and yes, i have shot many white tails in the woods of Pennsylvania in my lifetime. (though not in many years).

240gr JSP .44 mag works extremely well on White Tails, i assure you. (So to does .30-30 Win JSP)

Were these shot with rifles or handguns? The .30-30 is in a whole different league than any handgun when it comes to generating the velocity necessary to ensure expansion of a JSP.

Originally Posted by m21sniper

And people aren't even as rugged as white tails, hence....JHPs.

There are a LOT of dead people created every year from JHP's in America amigo. Every single police and military law enforcement unit in America uses JHP's for a reason. US SpecOps use JHPs for many roles, as do US Snipers. It's not a matter of "it's all politics."

This is a real mixed bag. Yes, many folks are killed every year by JHP's. When they work, they work spectacularly. They fail just as spectacularly, such as with the 1" of penetration afforded by the .40 S&W in the subject review.

The military id barred from using expanding bullet ammunition. The "JHP's" in use by snipers and the like are Sierra Match Kings, used in the .308 (7.62 NATO), .223 (5.56 NATO) and the .338 Lapua. These are not the hollow points we are discussing here. The hollow point is not meant to make them expand. They do not expand; I have used 168 grain Match Kings from the .30-'06, and 53 grain Match Kings from the .220 Swift to take numerous coyotes. None have ever expanded, not even at the extremely high velocities obtainable with the .220 Swift. The hollow point is simply an expedient in the forming of a more uniform jacket. It serves no other purpose, nor is it meant to. The Match King (and similar bullets) are therefore legal for military use under international treaty.

Originally Posted by m21sniper

They definitely work. Not 100% of the time, but that has as much to do with the target as anything else, and in reality, any failure to stop is a failure in shot placement. Ie, user error.

Absolutely concur. Shot placement is paramount. Too many rely upon some "wonder bullet" or caliber to make up for poor shooting. Doesn't work that way.

Originally Posted by m21sniper

PS: Semi wadcutters were designed for target shooting, they were not designed with their effect in soft tissue in mind at all. SWC is target practice ammunition. And even as good as they are for big game, solids can and do fail to stop too.

I think you are confusing full wadcutters with semi wadcutters. Full wadcutters are definitely target bullets. Semi wadcutters are big game bullets exclusively. They will do yeoman service as a target bullet, but that was never their intent. Elmer Keith is the original designer, the father of the semi wadcutter. He is also widely acknowledged as the father of modern handgun hunting, being instrumental in S&W's decision to produce the .357 magnum, as well as the driving force behind their introduction of the .44 magnum. "Keith type" bullet is synonymous with "semi wadcutter" bullet. Keith is absolutely clear in his intended use for the semi wadcutter. It is a hunting bullet, plain and simple. Read his books Sixguns or Hell, I Was There for further insight. They are damn enjoyable books, by the way. I think you would like them.

[jyl]

What is the explanation for how numerous 40 S&W rounds could penetrate only an inch or so into a human body?

I find this pretty baffling, to be honest. I'm sitting here poking myself and it seems inconceivable that even a handgun round could fail to penetrate more than that.

Did these bullets all hit bones and thus fail to penetrate? Can anyone tell from the x-rays?

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Were these shot with rifles or handguns? The .30-30 is in a whole different league than any handgun when it comes to generating the velocity necessary to ensure expansion of a JSP.

The .44 Mag was a Ruger Blackhawk and i used to use 240gr JSPs. They are highly effective vs Whitetails. The .30-30 was a marlin carbine. Also extremely effective vs Whitetails with lighter JSPs, and is said to be fine for anything up to black bear with heavier JSPs (i have never shot a bear).

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

This is a real mixed bag. Yes, many folks are killed every year by JHP's. When they work, they work spectacularly. They fail just as spectacularly, such as with the 1" of penetration afforded by the .40 S&W in the subject review.

True for all ammunition. When a solid punches a neat and totally non lethal hole in somebody because you just barely missed the organs and it didn't fragment or break up creating secondary missiles to create additional damage then you have just as spectacular a failure. I suspect that the actual short term difference in effect between a 1" surface wound and a clean in and out shot that hit no organs is actually quite minimal.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

The military is barred from using expanding bullet ammunition.

That is incorrect.

US MP's and US SpecOps use Hollowpoint ammunition.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

The "JHP's" in use by snipers and the like are Sierra Match Kings, used in the .308 (7.62 NATO)...These are not the hollow points we are discussing here. The hollow point is not meant to make them expand. They do not expand; I have used 168 grain Match Kings from the .30-'06, and 53 grain Match Kings from the .220 Swift to take numerous coyotes. None have ever expanded, not even at the extremely high velocities obtainable with the .220 Swift. The hollow point is simply an expedient in the forming of a more uniform jacket. It serves no other purpose, nor is it meant to. The Match King (and similar bullets) are therefore legal for military use under international treaty.

Any HP is legal under the treaty as long as it's not primarily intended to cause more severe wounds.

I will post the US Army JAG legal opinion on Hollowpoints below.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I think you are confusing full wadcutters with semi wadcutters.

No, i know what SWC and WC's are.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Semi wadcutters are big game bullets exclusively.

Manufacturers have made SWC in 9mm and .45ACP for decades, and probably still do. The first caliber which was made in SWC was .38 special.

Ever seen a S&W .38 Special automatic designed for firing SWCs exclusively? It's a target pistol.

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

They (SWC) will do yeoman service as a target bullet, but that was never their intent. Elmer Keith is the original designer, the father of the semi wadcutter. He is also widely acknowledged as the father of modern handgun hunting, being instrumental in S&W's decision to produce the .357 magnum, as well as the driving force behind their introduction of the .44 magnum.

I know who he is.

With all due respect to Mr. Keith, who is an Old School legend, SWCs were first introduced when Mr. Kieth was 1 year old.

Elmer Kieth is not the inventer of SWC, and they are in fact designed for target practice.

"The first bullet that modern shooters would recognize as a SWC was the 150 grain Ideal 360271, which was designed by B. F. Wilder just after 1900. This bullet had a reputation for accuracy and for cutting clean, full-caliber holes in targets, and was recommended by the United States Revolver Association for target work."

http://www.lasc.us/38SWC.htm

Still, i totally agree with you that SWC is very good for big game if it has sufficient antimony content, but Human beings are far less robust than pretty much any big game animal, so there is no need to plow through massive bone structure and/or
extremely tough hide.

I think that sidearms of any kind are a terrible choice for shooting at human beings, that's what God invented semi-automatic 12 gauge shotguns for.

Originally Posted by jyl

What is the explanation for how numerous 40 S&W rounds could penetrate only an inch or so into a human body?

Keep in mind this is just a couple kinds of rounds. Perhaps a projectile in question was defective, perhaps one was hand-loaded and driven to a velocity never intended for that particular cartridge, there are a host of possible reasons. I am sure bad luck has a bit to do with any failure too...

I'm gonna go out on a limb and opine that it is extremely atypical for a major caliber factory loaded JHP to penetrate only 1". If it was regularly the case no one would use them at all, and it would be all over the pages of every gun rag around. Wholesale failure cannot be long concealed, and JHPs have been in a 40 year hey day to date.

[RPKESQ]

Hollow points in handguns are more manufacturers hype than true fact. Handgun hollowpoint are often defeated by any kind of thick clothing which will result in very low penetration. Heavy leather, thick material (like on a Navy pea coat will slow such bullets even more. Handgun (typical defensive handguns) velocities are quite low and any expansion limits penetration. The more effective the expansion is, the lower the penetration.

Hard cast or jacketed semi wad cutter shape is the gold standard for killing with a handgun.
Over 40 years of hunting much tougher game than humans have proven it to be highly effiicent.

One of the reasons for the origin of the .45 cal 1911 was because smaller round nose lead handgun bullets were not stopping the natives. When adopted the standard military load was a 230 gr. full metal jacketed round nose. Few stopping problems were recorded for this load. So we know that large caliber full metal jacket round nose works.

Improving the shape of semiauto bullets in duty weapons is much more difficult. Feeding problems must be avoided at all costs. The truncated cone shape has proven to be reliable in feeding and penetration.

You cannot compare rifle bullets to handgun bullets as the velocities are enormously different. Any experience with rifles is next to useless when discussing handgun bullets.

And Jeff is correct. The US military sniper rifle rounds are not constructed to expand. They are "hollow points" for aerodynamic purposes only (you would think someone with a sig line of sniper might know that!).