Ethical Dilemma

[aap1966]

OK Guys,........need the moral brains of Pelican.
I work for a medium size organisation ( a couple thousand employees) and have just been assigned a special project in addition to my usual workload. It's a hassle and a bore but I can still get it done. My immediate manager has instructed me to claim overtime for it, even though I have not actually worked any overtime. He has told me keep things quiet, he would sign it off and that would be it.
Call me naive, but isn't that fraud?

Comments?
I'm particularly interested in the opinions of guys in Senior Management. Does the "Nuremberg Defence" (my superior told me to do it) have any sway??

P.S. Of course I'm not going to do it.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Has he sent you this directive via e-mail?

If so, it's in writing and therefore extremely damning...

[dd74]

Sounds like this project is a pet of his. Be careful, lest you both feel the ire of upper management should they find this out.

BTW: what's your icon below "aap1966"? It looks like an old Ford Mustang II, which, I'm sorry to say, was an abomination of a rip off of the Mustang brand.

[Tidybuoy]

Totally agree....don't do anything like that (i.e., steeling from your employer), unless you have instructions in writing). He'll support you now but not when you get caught.

Your boss my like you and feels this is one way he can give you an extra bonus and have nothing more than good intentions. I would still only report your actual hours worked - he will still like you and if he really feels compelled to help you out - he should get you a permenant raise (in fact, maybe you should hint at that. i.e., "it's no big, boss. Just get me a decent raise this year").

[alf]

Do not claim OT unless you worked it, regardless of what your manager told you. He will respect you for it and more importantly you will.

[rusnak]

Think like a Japanese....smile and nod, act like you are agreeing while you think "screw that noise, I'm not layin my rear out there for pidly overtime pay". You get caught, you get charged. Your boss ain't payin your legal fees, and he ain't gonna be around to cover for you if he also gets fired.

As a rule, don't break the law.

[aap1966]

Must admit all the replies thus far are in line with my thinking.
I'm still interested in the views of senior management types. Who gets their ass kicked? Him? Me? Both??



DD74: It's a 1978 Ford (Australia) Cobra XC, runout model of the 2 door fords, 400 produced. Quite the collector's item in Australia now. ( The previous model was the basis for the Mad Max car) Available as a 302 or 351 V8

[alf]

Originally Posted by aap1966

Must admit all the replies thus far are in line with my thinking.
I'm still interested in the views of senior management types. Who gets their ass kicked? Him? Me? Both??

Both if you go through with it. Him if you rat him out. Neither if you do the right thing and help him see the light.

[svandamme]

don't over analyse it

you didn't do OT
then don't file OT

that's all you need to do to stay on the safe side of things, regardless of the scenario
ain't no way you can get in trouble for not filing a fraudulent OT report

[widgeon13]

Originally Posted by svandamme

don't over analyse it

you didn't do OT
then don't file OT

that's all you need to do to stay on the safe side of things, regardless of the scenario
ain't no way you can get in trouble for not filing a fraudulent OT report

I think the above captures it in a nutshell, pretty simple.

If you immediate supervisor is that much of an idiot, watch out for him in the future though. He should be fired!

[aap1966]

Originally Posted by widgeon13

If you immediate supervisor is that much of an idiot, watch out for him in the future though. He should be fired!

If you're a Dilbert fan, you'll know what I'm up against.

[Jim Richards]

Originally Posted by svandamme

don't over analyse it

you didn't do OT
then don't file OT

that's all you need to do to stay on the safe side of things, regardless of the scenario
ain't no way you can get in trouble for not filing a fraudulent OT report

Stijn nailed it perfectly.

[Jims5543]

When I worked for big corporations there was always a blitz at the end of the fiscal year to pump as much o/t a possible so our dept would get its budget the next year. It would usually start 3 months before the end of the fiscal year.

When I worked for a small corporation in West Palm Beach it was pretty much expected that everyone in my dept would work a minimum of 60 hours a week. We were all salary except for one guy that I shared an office with. At the end of the year he would make 20K more than I would due to all his o/t pay, once he showed me how much more he was making in o/t and he was a lower guy than I was I started laying plans to get out on my own.

Best move of my life was leaving that Edited - language removed, Z-man hole.

[Z-man]

Counter point: Maybe your supervisor is expecting you to need to work a little OT to get the job done. Why? Well, this is work above and beyond your normal work, right? And your normal work requires you to work an 8-hour day.

From a supervisor's point of view, if you're not putting in a solid 8-hour workday, then something is wrong - and that's most likely you. Or, look at it this way - if you have time to work on a special project without having to put in for OT, then you're slacking off on your regular work.

My suggestion: during your regular business hours, do your regular job, and do this special project afterwards.

Just a counterview.
-Z-man.

[legion]

Every year we have "ethics training" at work. It usually consists of a meeting with our manager where we go over real scenarios that have happened at our company and the results.

The first year, in 100% of the scenarios, every time a line employee did something wrong, they were fired. Every time a manager did something wrong, they were "reprimanded and counseled". This included situations where a line employee and a manager colluded. This year's scenarios included ONE where a manager was fired.

My point? Managers tend to look out for each other and the same action isn't viewed as severe by other managers when a manager does it as opposed to a line employee. (The opposite should be true IMO.)

YOU will get in trouble for this, the manager that dreamed it up may or may not. Sadly, it will degrade into a "your word against his" situation. Guess who other managers/higher ups will believe?

Your manager may believe he is rewarding you with OT. He may want to show that you busted your posterior working on his special project. Either way, you are the one with everything to lose.

[Jim Richards]

Zoltan, this is why your counter point isn't applicable:

My immediate manager has instructed me to claim overtime for it, even though I have not actually worked any overtime. He has told me keep things quiet, he would sign it off and that would be it.

That is fraud.

[Tobra]

you need a different supervisor if he is advocating you commit fraud, which he is

[Tim Walsh]

Originally Posted by Jim Richards

Zoltan, this is why your counter point isn't applicable:


That is fraud.

Jim,
I think he's saying to work his normal duties during normal hours, then actually work the OT on the special project, no fraud, but more hours worked.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Z-man

Counter point: Maybe your supervisor is expecting you to need to work a little OT to get the job done. Why? Well, this is work above and beyond your normal work, right? And your normal work requires you to work an 8-hour day.

From a supervisor's point of view, if you're not putting in a solid 8-hour workday, then something is wrong - and that's most likely you. Or, look at it this way - if you have time to work on a special project without having to put in for OT, then you're slacking off on your regular work.

My suggestion: during your regular business hours, do your regular job, and do this special project afterwards.

Just a counterview.
-Z-man.

Yup,

I agree.

That's the way to accomplish the extra work and be compensated for it and also to help your manager with what I suspect is a larger resource management/budget issue.

I have done things similar to this in the past to protect my staff. Not that they did not put forth the best effort at all times but these "special projects" have a way of becoming part of the normal workload.

You may have time to fit it into your current load. But you don't say if it is your peak time or not. What happens when you do hit peak and the expectation from corp, based on a precedent that you set, is that you can handle the extra load. Now you may need to put in the OT and they turn around and ding you for it.

Not as cut and dry as you may think.

[Jim Richards]

Originally Posted by Tim Walsh

Jim,
I think he's saying to work his normal duties during normal hours, then actually work the OT on the special project, no fraud, but more hours worked.

Thanks Tim. If that's what he meant, it makes sense.