Boeing machinists strike.

[Superman]

Originally Posted by IROC

One thing I've never understood is why do union workers think they deserve "job security"? Everyone else in this world earns their job security through performance. Why do unions attempt get "job security" guaranteed as a contract issue?

It is complicated. Sometimes, as in this instance, "job security" largely means outsourcing policy. In the usual sense what it means is the degree of justification management needs to show in order to terminate a worker. Now......you guys who don't understand me but think you do, are probably already pissed at this post. Well, as with many things, your perspective may or may not be complete. For example:

In Washington State, as in most states, the "employment at will" doctrine is alive and well. Still. This doctrine concludes that the employers own the jobs and can grant or take them away at their whim. In Washington State, as with every state, employers are prohibited from discriminating on the basis of a protected group (religion, race, sex, etc). But....employers can discriminate all they want against unprotected groups. For example, it is perfectly lawful for an employer to announce on Monday morning that they don't like people with moustaches, and that all mousachioed persons are, as of this moment, terminated. Union representatives work toward contract language that outlines under what conditions workers may be terminated.

I know of no labor contract that disallows employers to terminate "for cause." You guys can pretend that union contracts prevent employers from terminating for cause, but it doesn't exist. It can be administratively cumbersome to jump through the hoops necessary to get everyone's buyoff that a worker deserves termination for cause, but it's not impossible. Indeed, a close friend of mine took over a large shop whose union was bludgeoning management. Over the years, my friend has evened that relationship up and one of the ways he did that was to create a system that ensures, in the case of a 'for cause' termination, that the justification is in place. When he fires someone, the union now enters those discussions with the assumption that after complete vetting, they will be telling their union member that the termination will "stick." Interestringly enough, changes like this have tipped the sale more in favor of management......AND IMPROVED THE OVERALL RELATIONSHIP AND COOPERATION. Go figure. Management starts doing its job, and things work out better. Whooda thunkit?

[J P Stein]

A few comments:

Ya'll are in an aluminum tube at 35K feet & 500 mph. You better hope that those simple assemblers, button pushers & whatnot do their job right.

You should also hope that that tube is so overdesigned that even if some dolt screws up you don't become part of a smoking hole in the ground.

Anyone with half a brain & spending a few years in manufacturing KNOWS that 5% of the workforce keeps the wheels going around. This is pretty much true top to bottom of the organization. Your job is to either become one of those or at least find out who they are, I figure.

I went to work at Boeing after about 20 years in manufacturing. I learned that it is like Giraffe screwing.....the same as anyone else but on a higher level....a synopsis of my 20 years at Boeing. It ain't like building Fords...... or Porsches for that matter or anything else you've experienced.....with a couple of exceptions here.
There are 27000 IAM folks in commercial airplanes....prolly 80000 total. That's a WAG as they don't tell us no more. That takes some gettin' used to.

I am in the IAM....not by choice, but there it is. Boeing's PR in this regard is much better than the unions. Many here are not misinformed just underinformed. The bad stuff is always in the fine print.

I expect no job security. Those who think that this is possible are fools....can't get any clearer than that, eh? That bit is typical union BS. Yes, I watched the small percentage march around making noise & spouting slogans....the appeal of emotion where none should creep in. I joined the 87 % voting to strike....

Ya'll think I am over paid? Come do my job. Some you could learn how to do it.....take you a few years tho. Come join the ranks of the overpaid. Do a First Article Inspection on that military dog house.....here's the drawing, there's the CMM....have at it chump.....Oh, put your stamp on it when your done. There's the other bits over there....and then the opposite side....they're all behind schedule so you can work OT on it.....the more the better if you know what's good for you.

[Flatbutt1]

Yes I'm sure a bright person could learn how to do the job over an appropriate period of time. Same in my job. But in my industry we've been averaging 2.5% every year over the last 8 years. We're mostly exempt so no OT. And our jobs have been going overseas as well. 11% over 3 years? Where do I sign?

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by J P Stein

A few comments:

Ya'll are in an aluminum tube at 35K feet & 500 mph. You better hope that those simple assemblers, button pushers & whatnot do their job right.


Ya'll think I am over paid? Come do my job. Some you could learn how to do it.....take you a few years tho. Come join the ranks of the overpaid. Do a First Article Inspection on that military dog house.....here's the drawing, there's the CMM....have at it chump.....Oh, put your stamp on it when your done. There's the other bits over there....and then the opposite side....they're all behind schedule so you can work OT on it.....the more the better if you know what's good for you.

Whooaa, a real live CMM!

As far as you personally being overpaid I have no idea but in 5-10 years when many of your union jobs are gone I think we'll have an answer as a group. Proof in the pudding and all that.

[lendaddy]

I don't mean to be so snippy, but I've seen it first hand here in Michigan. Not only the general auto guys but specifically the tool and die guys. They had the same attitude I see from JP above, "yea man we're the best, we're worth it, we are what really drives this place, you can't replace our expertise, blah blah blah". They got a reality check real quick and so will these guys. I see the oil industry and aerospace getting a massive wake-up call this decade.

[Porsche-poor]

I worked at Kaiser Alum. in Tacoma from 1998 to 2000 yes during the strike. No one wins these things. By the time management got a clue the power prices had put them out of business and all the union got was a big layoff.

I worked in the engineering department and so loved going to work and being called everything in the book by union workers who were not part of the strike.

The best story I have involves a union member telling me it was ok to pull out in traffic just as a semi went buzzing by. He got yelled at by the other side of the line seems they did not like the idea of my 4000 pound 4-runner in their laps if I had been hit.

[J P Stein]

Originally Posted by lendaddy

I don't mean to be so snippy, but I've seen it first hand here in Michigan. Not only the general auto guys but specifically the tool and die guys. They had the same attitude I see from JP above, "yea man we're the best, we're worth it, we are what really drives this place, you can't replace our expertise, blah blah blah". They got a reality check real quick and so will these guys. I see the oil industry and aerospace getting a massive wake-up call this decade.

I started in the ship yards making a 1.96 per hour. Journeyman scale was 2.90 per hour in 1964. Now at Boeing I'm at 32.00 per hour. Do you think that inflation has not had a bit to do with that? Gas was 30 cents per gallon back then....for premium. The house I bought in Seattle was 28k in 1975.....now worth a half million.....shoulda kept it, eh?
Do the math.

We are the best (collectively) and have proved it by surviving against the money of the EU....not to mention the rest of the US manufactures. The US auto companies have fallen on hard times. Why? Well..... the UAW insisting on producing nothing but SUVs & Pickup trucks, it's gotta be the unions fault.

The reality is that the middle class is disappearing and you sound happy about it....that'll teach them greedy SOBs. The CEO of Boeing makes more in his first 2 hours of the year than I make in a whole year.

We'll be left with investment bankers and bugger flippers....which are you?

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by J P Stein

The reality is that the middle class is disappearing and you sound happy about it....that'll teach them greedy SOBs. The CEO of Boeing makes more in his first 2 hours of the year than I make in a whole year.

We'll be left with investment bankers and bugger flippers....which are you?

Neither, I am the second generation owner of a small machine shop and I've seen what happened to the industry at an accelerated pace over the last few years. I'm telling you the future, I'm not your enemy.

[Normy]

-What amazes me about you people is that many of you probably own businesses. Businesses that are most likely patronized either directly or indirectly by Boeing employees. Uhmmm...if they aren't making money then YOU aren't making money!

The other thing that amazes me is that you people apparently don't read much; there was an article in the Wall Street Journal today that talked about the strike, and it turns out that the real reason that the machinists walked was the issue of job security, more specifically the SCOPE clause in their contract. Boeing management wants to farm out the work to companies in other parts of the world rather than give the work [and the pay] to their own American workers.

Now, I'm sure that you all have brains...that you can think and can SEE THE IMPORTANCE OF KEEPING THIS WORK IN THE US!

Listen- big businesses such as the auto industry, the oil companies, and high-tech manufacturing are the big engines that power the airplane that is our economy. If those engines are overburdened or destroyed...we are in a world of hurt. But the real reason that these "engines" can power our "plane" is because of the billions of dollars that are added to our economy by the paychecks and eventual spending of the employees.

If those "employees" are now in China, Japan, or Italy...then that money is going THERE. Not HERE.

I fully support the International Association of Machinists in this one. Give 'em hell guys!

N!

[Normy]

Originally Posted by cashflyer

I am an A&P mechanic....
I am also Chief Inspector and Accountable Manager (that's an FAA term, for any who do not know) at my shop.
And I am also DOD contract negotiator at my shop.

I have done First Article production and testing. I have sat through the audits with military big-dogs. And I have put my name and stamp on the bottom line plenty of times.


And I'll happily change jobs before ever signing a union card.

Please do not work any ANY airplane I ever fly. If you cannot understand that unions exist so that people can protect each other against management harrassment and even malfeasance, then I don't trust your skills.

I bet you're one of those mechanics who's REAL GOOD with a pencil.....

-Story: Over Switzerland, 2000. I was the captain of a cargo 727. Middle of a beautiful night, and I was looking down at the snowy Alps in the moonlight enroute from Brussels to Bergamo, Italy. My flight engineer taps me on the shoulder; we are losing oil from number three engine. We took off with three gallons, and were now down to 1.5 after an hour of flight time. WAY out of limits. I told him to tell me if it dropped down to 1 gallon. Sure enough, 15 minutes later it was indicating a gallon, and I pulled the engine to idle. We were just letting down into Bergamo on a perfectly clear night and I could see the airport 30 miles away, so I just idled it. I had it available for a go-around with 1.0 gallons as a result, but I didn't use it and landed normally with it idling. We landed, the sun was coming up, and I used normal reverse. As we were taxiing in, the Italian controller comes on the radio and says to us "Eurotrans...be advised you have large cloud blue smoke from right side during roll-out". Great. Only NOW do you tell me that I'm on fire...!

Well, I parked the plane, jumped out of the seat, and ran down the steps as soon as they were in place. When I went back to the number 3 engine, there was oil pouring out of the bottom of the cowling like a garden hose at full blast! We blew some sort of seal, and it all went into the reversers.

I figured we were going to be stuck in Bergamo for a day or two, while they fixed it or hung a new motor.

-I wound up on a conference call to Dallas with the Chief Pilot, the Director of Maintenance, and the Director of Operations. Our mechanic in Bergamo [I have several four-letter words to describe this individual] determined that the engine needed to be changed. And so our BRILLIANT management team in Texas decided that me and my crew were to fly the plane BACK TO BRUSSELS!

I'm like "I DON'T THINK SO!" and I used those exact words! They said that they would fill the engine with oil, and we would ferry the plane back to Belgium, about a 2 hour flight. When I said NEY they started the typical non-union airline crap:

"Well, we really need you to be a team player on this, and you know we have a lot of faith in your airmanship, and we think you can get it back to Brussels, and well...if you can't work with us on this, then we will have to have you come to Dallas and we will need to reconsider your employment....blah blah blah." To which, I replied the obvious:

"If I accept and attempt to fly an airplane knowing that one of my engines is GOING to need to be shut down in flight the FAA will revoke my license! I want to help you out, but I cannot take this airplane. The mechanic here has told me it cannot safely fly back to Brussels, and you are just going to have to do what you have to do. Me and my crew are going to the hotel." I had a lot riding on this: I was 33 years old and making $105k a year at this job-

And that's exactly what I did. I figured I was going to be fired, but I'm not going to get in trouble with the FAA or KILLED just because some scumbag freight airline can't maintain a friggin' JT8D, only the most ubiquitous motor in the airline industry.

They didn't fire me; during the conversation I mentioned the FAA, and they knew that I was a young guy with lots of flight time and I would just get another job and sue the crap out of them, on top of getting the feds involved.

No. You know what they did? We had a captain who lived near Bergamo. Don Whitley is his name, and he's an Eastern Airlines SCAB. I have the ALPA scab list on my computer, and he's right there. Well, they called him up, and he was only too happy, at the age of 58, to take the plane to Brussels.

AND he got over Germany and the motor ran out of oil and he shut it down. AND the FAA came after him for it too!

Good. Justice. Dumb bastard!

-What you don't seem to understand is that if we had been a UNION airline, the company wouldn't have been able to mess with me like that. I lucked out; in many non-union shops [such as what you advocate] you are fired if you so much as write up a maintenance problem!

Question sir: Would you be comfortable putting your wife and children and relatives on a plane operated by the company I worked for?

N?

[legion]

Normy, the effect of what you are talking about ensures that Boeing has an artificially high cost structure in comparison to the competition. That will eventually lead to Boeing going out of business and all of the union employees losing their jobs.

Of course, the strike is about what they can extract RIGHT NOW, and not the long-term viability of the company.

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by Normy

I fully support the International Association of Machinists in this one. Give 'em hell guys!

N!

How's your attitude/approach been working out for you and the American worker these last ten years or so?

Solidarity! Dumbasses, selling tomorrow for today

[BGCarrera32]

Originally Posted by J P Stein

Ya'll think I am over paid? Come do my job. Some you could learn how to do it.....take you a few years tho. Come join the ranks of the overpaid. Do a First Article Inspection on that military dog house.....here's the drawing, there's the CMM....have at it chump.....Oh, put your stamp on it when your done. There's the other bits over there....and then the opposite side....they're all behind schedule so you can work OT on it.....the more the better if you know what's good for you.

I'm sure you've earned a great deal of what you have. However, when you're the one dictating which items and dimensions are CTQ and appropriate for first article, and creating the IP to build the CMM and the aircraft, come on back and have a real discussion. Until then, you're barking up the wrong tree.

[J P Stein]

Originally Posted by legion

Normy, the effect of what you are talking about ensures that Boeing has an artificially high cost structure in comparison to the competition. That will eventually lead to Boeing going out of business and all of the union employees losing their jobs.

Who is the competition and how much do their workers make?.......we're talking about the makers of large commercial airplanes, eh? Are they unionized?

I've often wondered and now I'm gonna find out. Show me the money.

[J P Stein]

Originally Posted by BGCarrera32

I'm sure you've earned a great deal of what you have. However, when you're the one dictating which items and dimensions are CTQ and appropriate for first article, and creating the IP to build the CMM and the aircraft, come on back and have a real discussion. Until then, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Arf, arf.

Taint my job to write the IP nor the FA instructions (that's a walk in the park)...SPEEA jobs...tho I spent 2 years as a QE else where on military jobs and can write a CMM program.....tho vector hits are tough freehand and I don't have CATIA access. I'm best at CMES and can work DEMIS & CAMIO.

You assume that I don't have the wherewithall tho you don't know me from Adam....that tells me something about you.

[Rich Lambert]

As a former IAM member (18 years), I can tell you it is a necessary, but not very evil entity. I don't understand this blind hatred of unions. It's business. Boeing tries to maximize profits...IAM members try to maximize profits. It's that simple. There's no good or evil involved. I seem to recall from my manager days that labor is about 8% of the price of an airplane. Parse that out over the 30+ year lifespan of an airframe and it's negligible. As far as off loading work, the price of labor is a small factor in out-sourcing. The disparity in labor rates between the US and virtually anywhere else is such that work will be off loaded no matter what. A lot of times work is off-loaded to countries that buy/will buy airplanes...it's business.

What the media doesn't show...ever, and especially during labor disputes is that the IAM has done a lot of good for Boeing employees and the cost to the flying public has been pennies.

Someone mentioned that due to seniority restraints good employees never rise to the top. Through the union negotiated QTTP (Quality Through Training Program) the company will pay for virtually any training you want/need to get ahead. Every IAM job has a skill set training matrix that allows anyone to acquire the necessary training to advance. QTTP will reimburse college tuition for engineering degrees, tech certificates...whatever. A very creative friend of mine (who incidentally works with Jeff's AOG crew) got the company to foot the bill for water skiing lessons on a private lake...yeah, I know, they'll probably close that loophole pretty soon.

The HSI (Health & Safety Institute) is a union negotiated partnership between mgt & mfg that addresses, you guessed it, health & safety issues. They've done a lot of good things for employees.

Why would anyone want less for your neighbors, friends, and family members? I read somewhere that every Boeing employee supports 3 jobs in the local economy. There's way more to this than the dumb fuchs the media interviews for the news.

I'm not totally unbiased in this. I've been non-represented for the past 12 years, but usually whatever benefits IAM/SPEEA negotiates trickles down to us non-union types...except for the guaranteed pay raises. That'd be sweet.

[Superman]

Originally Posted by Rich Lambert

What the media doesn't show...ever, and especially during labor disputes is that the IAM has done a lot of good for Boeing employees and the cost to the flying public has been pennies.

You must be out of your mind to suggest that management and labor can cooperate to their mutual benefit, or that "labor" would need an organization, a staff, a spokesman (like management has) in order to accomplish these goals. It makes no sense. This would only cause the company to be more efficient and profitable, and would create jobs and opportunities and fringe benefits and a safe working environment for the workers. Nobody wants that.

[Normy]

Originally Posted by legion

Normy, the effect of what you are talking about ensures that Boeing has an artificially high cost structure in comparison to the competition. That will eventually lead to Boeing going out of business and all of the union employees losing their jobs.

Of course, the strike is about what they can extract RIGHT NOW, and not the long-term viability of the company.

Oh, I see....so you apparently believe that unions should be removed, deleted, or made impotent in order to protect a "cost structure"?

Well then; next time your wife/child/relative walks on board an airliner, could you email me in advance so that I can discuss "cost structure" with you? I'm sure that "cost structure" will be foremost on your mind at that point...

N!

[Normy]

Originally Posted by cashflyer

While I do have two degrees, and am very good with a pencil, I also have been a hands-on mechanic for many years. And now that I'm done with my morning coffee, I'm going out to the shop to overhaul a hydraulic pump - that goes on a BOEING airplane.

If I have some extra time today, I'll try to harass some of the workers for you. It's not like they can stand up for themselves. They are completely helpless because they don't have a union to protect them!!

Enjoy your coffee. I prefer cheap "8 O' clock" brand from the local grocery store. I always take the hazlenut flavored full-bean bags. I have my own grinder, and use twice filtered water in my European Krupps coffee maker. Good stuff- and I make it Navy strong too.

Now...what about some advice on your preferred brand of pencil? I suspect that you go through plenty of them. Come on...a cannon-plug cleaner/"graphite-repair" artist like you must know EXACTLY which one handles the best and lasts longest....

[stay away from my airplane please!]

N!

[legion]

Originally Posted by Normy

Oh, I see....so you apparently believe that unions should be removed, deleted, or made impotent in order to protect a "cost structure"?

Well then; next time your wife/child/relative walks on board an airliner, could you email me in advance so that I can discuss "cost structure" with you? I'm sure that "cost structure" will be foremost on your mind at that point...

N!

No, I'm saying trading gains today for a bankrupt employer tomorrow is not a wise plan.