I count myself as among the tifosi, yet I think this decision stinks. The stewards are "investigating" far too many things in recent years. I have issues with this, as the individual stewards don't have sufficient technical competence to make these judgements, they are not consistent from event to event and don't have a resonable set of guidlelines for dealing with infractions. Think of how many times a driver goes off course and comes back on. It happened dozens of times at Spa, from lap 1 onwards. It happens at Canada, Monaco, and any other track where the driver doesn't get beached in the gravel.

In addition, in no particular order:

Drivers will not always make room for cars on their inside, if there is safe runoff room available and the other driver is not fully alongside. In this instance, Kimi did what virtually any other driver would do. IF there had been a wall there, or IF Lewis had been alongside, or slightly ahead, Kimi would have changed his line.

Lewis was behind Kimi at a point along the staight just past the start finish line, so as far as I am concerned, he had given back the advantage gained. After all, he was ahead of Kimi in the middle third of the braking zone entering the chicane, although on the outside. Argue all you want about the timing, for him to get behind Kimi required that he back off and he did so.

Kimi lost the next corner, not because of some miracle that Lewis performed, but by his bizzare move to the far outside ahead of the braking zone and by braking early. Leaving that much room on the inside was like an engraved invitation for Lewis. Half the field could have passed Kimi, too, had they been there.

Lewis would likely have gotten by anyway later in the lap, Kimi was a bit of a sitting duck. He couldn't make full use of his last set of tires. I'd wager that if the rain hadn't come, he'd have been passed anyway, on the Kemmell straight.

That was racing and didn't deserve second look. For the record, I think the pit lane incident with Massa at the last race was also not a big deal. No contact, no problem.

JR

No, Max and Bernie know that it is BS too. They just dont care. Actually I think Bernie wants Hammy to win, but Max....probably not so much.

See, they dont care beacuse nobody can do anything about it. those people are so far seperated from the real world that they couldnt care less what other people think of them. So the decision stands and everybody screams foul. Big deal..Max and Bernie say if you dont like it, go race your McLarens elsewhere. They have so much F.U. power that they are pretty much unstoppable. Besides, by the time Monza has come and gone, the majority of fans will have forgotton all about it. :rolleyes: And believe me, EVERYONE will be watching the race next week to see what happens after this weeks drama!

Which is the only that Bernie wants......and what he wants he gets...

Tell me in which of these frames Hamilton was in front and took the position. In my perception I see he never got the position and would not give up, instead, as Sammy nailed it BTW, chose to play a game of chicken and see if he could make Kimi give up the line as he pushed his way in.

The pictures and clock at the bottom do not lie. Hamilton barely gave the position back in a unsportsmanlike way.

Should he have been penalized? No I disagree with it totally, I think Hamilton is a dirty driver and it will become more apparent as the years go by, he is always bumping and hitting other cars and I think a lot of the other drivers are getting tired of it.

And I guess you think whoever this "Nikki Lauda" is knows more than Stijn?:D

Jim,
That is easy. back up a few frames and you will see Hamilton ahead of Kimi. SmileWavy

Jim, those pics you post certainly show the Ferrari ahead. But if you back up a little (even before the first pic, I think (if my memory is correct) that there was a camera from driver's left that showed the McLaren was actually a bit ahead. Maybe by 1/3 of a car length. Perhaps it was just the perspective of the shot, but that's the way I remember seeing the replay from Sunday morning.

Had Kimi not pushed Hamilton off at the second portion of the chicane, Hamilton could have made the corner. Not saything that was a wise place to attempt a pass, nor that Kimi pulled a dirty one on LH, but it's not entirely accurate to characterize LH's attempt as some sort of banzai maneuver. (Zanardi's pass on Herta at the Corkscrew was a banzai maneuver.) After all, LH entered the complex/corner on the outside.

The part about giving back position is a bit of grey area. It's like the order to "slow down" for a local yellow. There's no rule (though I could be wrong--the FIA's rulebook must have a bazillion little obscure details and loopholes) that states you've got to back off x% from full race pace for a local yellow. Neither is there a clear understanding of what exactly constitutes giving back the unfair advantage gained by passing off course. So LH gives back the position by allowing Kimi to get back in front by a full car length. Is/was that enough? Is there some sort of rule that then says LH is not allowed to repass Kimi until a certain distance or number of corners had been covered afterwards?

This is a good view of the incident. View it quickly before youtube takes it down.

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Good analysis on the video. I agree 100%

Nice Scott, thanks for posting...I agree totally!
Its a live video feed, what can be hidden here?

FIA: Are you going to believe us or your lying eyes LOL

A few observations:
1. If you pass on the outside, you've got to be a lot farther ahead than LH was to make that pass (especially if you've got an immediate right-hander after the left). To me, overly optimistic.
2. Both cars lock up the fronts, not just KR. Look at the other angles that Jim linked.
3. This means both of the cars are understeering. Which plays a big role in what happens at the second part of the chicane. (ie KR may have had a lot less choices than others imply by "forcing" LH off course).
4. LH does dip his nose briefly behind KR after they are full speed and past the start/finish. But, if what Stijn posted is accurate, there is no way a car that is being accelerated at less than race pace(LH) is going to keep up with another car (KR) with 100% throttle, and lose maybe a couple of meters. I'd be interested to know what LH's throttle position was, vs the past 3 laps at that corner. At best it is a perfunctory acknowledgement of the rules. I surmise that the stewards are suggesting that the pass for position by KR around LH should have occurred immediately at low speed, right at or near the point that LH re-entered the track. Is that iterated by the rules? Not really. But, the stewards do get to interpret the rules.

You guys have a ways to go to catch up with the guys over at FerrariChat.com. They have a thread on this subject (several actually) that has 760 replys and over 10K views.

They take this way too serious.

PistonHeads:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&f=42

- 9 threads, from "F1 has died" to "List of FIA "incidents"" to "Belgian GP official thread" (2,162 posts - 110 pages just for that thread)

- 2 Petition threads

No Porsche was injured in the making of this controversy - so we just shoot ideas about. Ferrari fans on the other hand take it as if it was their car which was insulted and demand satisfaction.

And now, a word from Jarno Trulli....
 

From an article on Autosport.com:

Jarno Trulli says he has no doubts that Lewis Hamilton did gain an advantage by cutting the chicane at the Belgian Grand Prix.

As the controversy rages over whether the race stewards were right to hand down a 25-second penalty for Hamilton's driving, Trulli thinks that the McLaren driver did benefit from missing out the final corner.

"In my opinion Hamilton got an advantage by cutting the chicane," Trulli told Gazzetta dello Sport. "Had he stayed on the road, he wouldn't have had the speed to overtake the Ferrari.

"In the same way at Monza someone could cut the first chicane, catch a rival's draft, and overtake him under braking at Roggia.

"When you attack on the outside, you do it at your own risk, because who's on the inside has the right to do the corner. If there isn't enough room, then you lift.

"Had there been a wall there, instead of the surfaced escape route, would Lewis have attacked anyway? Had there been gravel, he wouldn't have had the chance to attack when rejoining the track because of dirty tyres."

McLaren are due to decide today whether or not to press ahead with their plans to appeal Hamilton's penalty, which dropped him from first to third in the race results.

that's exactly what i have been saying all along

Niki Lauda and others say the opposite... It's not as if Jarno is the depositary of the final truth... Plus he's a Tifoso inside ;)

what country is Jarno from? ;)

The "if there was a wall there" is total BS. There wasn't a wall, and most/all of the drivers used the paved runoff areas to stay in the race and some no doubt "gained an advantage" (relative to if there was kitty litter). A good driver knows each track and where they can be aggressive and where they have escape routes.

It's like saying, "well, if there was no corkscrew at Laguna then he couldn't have passed like that..."

"that's racing"

So, Lauda is the more reliable source? Didn't he have a little success with Ferrari?

This just illustrates how pointless it is to argue these matters. There will never be any concensus (much like a political thread...) and if you really want to get picky, most of what is being discussed here isn't directly related to the ruling that the stewards made, as a few of you have pointed out.

I think most would simply agree that the stewards need to be less involved. Perhaps it would help to have a permanent group of stewards appointed by the FIA and comprising some ex-professional drivers and engineers.

JR

Italy.

I think with the stewards involved and making decisions is liken to that of instant replay in NFL.

It just needs to go away or diminish some.