+1

And don't bring up the fact that Kimi crashed out, because when Hamilton took Kimi and himself out At Montreal he was still given a 10 position grid penalty for the following race at Magny Court.

Once again 2 different interpretations for 2 different drivers (or teams).

That's what's bothering people.

"No point in penalising Raikonnen by 25 secs - he didn't finish. Probably the same reason he wasn't stung for the pass under yellow - no point."

ok just seen your point Matteo - fair enough

All this proves one point - if you want exciting racing, controversy, lots of passing and drama - just add water.

Tim

Maybe they could introduce sprinkler systems around the track on a random timing system? Not too much but you never know when or if they will come on!

Just kidding

this Kimi forced hamilton is BS
Kimi was in the lead, and did nothing other then defending his position
Hamilton is the one that force himself off the track, he did not have the position for that overtake, he was not in front of Kimi , even if he had turned in from that position, there's no way he could have kept the speed up, and still exit the chicane in the lead...

the fastest line in a chicane, Kimi was on it, Lewis was wide... very wide , he could not over take where he tried it...

Stijn, You say that he couldn't have made that pass. Look at the tape, he DID make that pass. There WAS room for both cars and if Kimi had given Hamilton the room that Hamilton gave Massa a few weeks back there would have been no problem. This wasnt a situation where hamilton late braked to the point that he slid off the track. No, he made the turn in clean and smooth.

If roles had been reversed, Kimi would have made the same attempt and so would Alonso and so would Stewart and so would Clark. Hamilton late braked and was ahead of Kimi going into the corner.

But you know what, that is all irrelevant. As I said before it was just good hard racing! LET THEM RACE! I have a poor memory...can someone remind me of what the penalties were for Massa and Kubica when they repeatedly drove off the track in their dogfight at Japan last year? What...oh thats right, nothing!

The fact is that the rules are arbitrarily enforced. They are vague at best and randomly applied. Just the fact that we can argue these points so vehemently proves that the rules are not clear and that there is too much open for personal interpretation.

I was thinking the exact same thing last night.....

He did not make the pass, if he did, Kimi would not have been able to block him...
He was on the outside of the turn, which means he needs to be a lot more in front to be able to take the lead...

He's lucky they removed the track barriers, they were up before..
http://lh5.ggpht.com/tchantches58/Rp...2/IMGP1301.JPG

Kimi was on the inside, you don't half outbrake on the outside, that's just silly...

Wait, I thought intentionally blocking could get you a penalty too? Right, that's only for McLaren...

Ok, in that case please review http://vimeo.com/1459174?pg=embed&sec=1459174

Please answer these questions.
1) Was Massa (the guy in the red car) wrong for locking up his brakes on a desperate late braking manuver and passing on the outside in this amazing pass?
2) Did Hamilton take his rightful racing line and force Massa off the track on the exit of the corner, or did he adjust his line to allow Massa room to race?

Like I said before LET THE DRIVERS RACE!

This could be NASCAR.

Yep. + 1

that's not a chicane
but if you need to know, that was a dirty move by Massa , he nearly slammed Lewis on that turn in... that's why Lewis adjusted, so he would be able to continue the race

Spa
 

The FIA stewards (Mosleys boys) ruined a great race by being overly harsh in reaction to a aggressive move that can be viewed differently depending on fan support. A next race, 10 place grid penalty would have been much fairer IMHO-Dennis

You honestly just do not see it do you, if Massa had been 1/2 way back on Hamilton I would agree with was a bad move. Pause at the 14 second mark of the video, Massa is in front of Hamilton and they have not even begun to challenge for the driving line Massa is giving Hamilton some squeeze but there is room for 2 cars here the pass was made in the 1st half of the turn, Now go to the 17 second mark, they are now at the exit of the turn and Hamilton has all the room he needs to run to the curb if he wants, Massa got the pass off clean.

Now go back to Hamiltons Pass on Kimi:
http://axisofoversteer.blogspot.com/2008/09/lewis-hamilton-wins-but-it-wins-ugly.html

Pause at the 27 second mark..... who is in front? Pause again at 28 seconds... who is STILL in front and who will not back off????? The pass did not stick but he forced it anyway, this is what Hamilton does. At 29 seconds, instead of backing off he goes left and cuts the chicane. At that point he is supposed to back off and rejoin behind Kimi, instead he floors it and rejoins in front.

At 38 seconds Kimi is finally able to get completely back in front and has to make an aggressive move to get back on the driving line.

FYI- I do not agree with the penalty once Kimi crashed out it was no longer and issue and should have been dropped. IMHO.

at 27 secs, they are nose to nose, there is NO lead, Kimi has the inside, Lewis the outside, which automatically means, he's not leading!!!

There is no way in hell he could have overtaken Kimi there,
none whatsoever, and still stay on the track...That's Hamilton's mistake

the massa story is different, because there was room to go wide there, where as in this case, not, it's a chicane, it's designed to be a single car race line there...

Kimi took the ideal racing line, which is his right as the leader... there is no rule that says , he should give way to his competitor
Lewis should have known better then to try to pass in a chicane, from the outside...

find me one example, of an F1 race, where there's a long high speed stretch, and a chicane...
Where the leader is overtaken, by his opponent , on the outside...


you'll find loads where it's done on the inside, where the challenger outbreaks the leader...

in this case, Lewis couldn't even outbrake Kimi.. because to do that on the outside, you'de have to break so late, you loose the speed you'll need to be successfull at the overtake....

on the inside, you can do it.. because you can block him
thats how it works

No, NASCAR has been very good about making sure it's unfair application of the rules isn't the story.

Also, NASCAR understands that letting a new, popular driver win renews fan support. The FIA, in its simple reasoning, believes that only letting the most popular team win keeps the fans happy and the sport vibrant. They fail to realize that that makes the sport appear rigged and the Ferrari fans get bored and move on while supporters of the other teams stop watching.

...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1220884507.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1220884520.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1220884537.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1220884552.jpg

look, here's how it works.... you outbrake, on the inside, block him to the outside
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/13FL0O1esL4&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/13FL0O1esL4&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

If he had gone on the outside, like Hamilton did, he would have not made it...
because that's how it works... if you have the lead, you have rights to the racing line
and that means that any fool that comes in at the wrong side of the road, ain't over taking you

I dont know what we are discussing anymore....

I thought it was the fact that Hamilton screwed up, cut the turn, gave up the spot but not enough and got penalized...

I think it's clear that:
1) Hamilton could not have overtaken Kimi there
2) Kimi defended his spot as he was supposed to
3) LH had to cut the chicane as he had committed to a bad pass and it was too late to slow down (like Heikky earlier when he ended up into Webber's car)
4) Hamilton slowed down past the chicane to give the psition back to KR
5) Raikkonen was in front but Hamilton had better traction and was then able to retake the position
6) Raikkonen tried to bump Hamilton at La Source but nothing happened.

The controversy is that for some (FIA Stewards included) LH did not slow down enough when he yielded the position to KR.

That's all. And we can argue ad infinitum.

Personally Kimi was eventually in front past the finish line and Hamilton was clearly slower then. After that, maybe because the McLaren is better in the rain, maybe because Lewis found a better patch of tarmac, maybe because Kimi was sleeping, Hamilton was able to gain speed on Raikkonen and over took him into La Source....

As I said before it is a shame that the stweards feel the need to intervene. LET THEM RACE has been said before.... Remember when Prost took the championship by not allowing Senna to overtake him at Suzuka?

And the following year when Senna took Prost out at the 1st turn? Or Schumy trying to take Villneuve out (or Damon Hill)? Nobody got penalized, nobody got fined, no 10 grid position penalities or bull**** like that...

It is just a shame. I would punish the intent of deliberately taking someone out, but to me yday it was just racing.

And I don't think Ferrari went and complain about that last night. For them the race was over on the podium...

I guess the FIA thought they needed to make the championship more interesting....

That's the key. They need to manufacture an "interesting" championship and naturally throw some bones to the tifosi (because after all, which team's fans buy the most merchandise and tickets?)

At the end of the day it's all about the money. The FIA will make damn sure Ferrari "wins" the championship. When McLaren starts becoming more popular than Ferrrari and their fans start pumping more $$$ (or EU$) into the FIA's pockets, you'll magically see a shift in the balance of power.

F1 is the biggest sham out there right now. Worse than the NBA with their ticky-tack officiating intended to "bump" games one way or the other and/or ensure 6 & 7 game playoff finals (think BIG $$$ in broadcast rights versus a 4-game sweep or a 5-game series). But that's another discussion for another thread. :cool:

If I were McLaren, I'd seriously be looking at pulling out of F1 entirely. It's ridiculous right now.