WTF???? Belgian GP winner demoted to 3rd!!! Spoilers inside

[Neilk]

Ferrari sucks!!! I am so pissed. They apparently lodged a protest against Hamilton for a fair move and he was given a 25 second penalty which demoted him to 3rd and gave Massa the win. WHAT BS.

Race was great. Nothing like a little rain to jumble things up. Poor Kimi, he had a great race until the rain came

What about Heidfeld? Great move to move to inters.

From AutoSport

"McLaren have lodged a notice of intention to appeal against Lewis Hamilton's demotion to third place in the Belgian Grand Prix, the FIA confirmed on Sunday night.

Hamilton was handed a 25-second penalty for gaining an advantage against then race leader Kimi Raikkonen after cutting the chicane two laps from home at Spa-Francorchamps.

McLaren spent some time on Sunday night evaluating whether they could appeal the penalty, but an FIA statement said that the team had indeed notified the stewards of their intention to appeal."

[Noah930]

Wow. What BS. And I'm saying that as a guy who wanted Kimi to win.

Certainly Hamilton cut the corner and gained an advantage. To a certain degree, he was forced to do so when Kimi pushed him off the track (which was a little unsporting, but not necessarily illegal). Hamilton got an advantage by cutting the corner a bit, but then gave it back to Kimi on the following straight. Hamilton then got back in the hunt, drafted Kimi, and got by Kimi fair and square on the following corner. Brilliant driving. Kimi may have been a little sneaky in trying to nudge Hamilton at the apex of the corner where he was passed (fairly), but nothing too horrible.

I think it's a bigger shame Kimi semi-tossed it away with his two last spins. That's a bit embarrassing.

[Noah930]

Also a shame that SeaBass went from P3 to P7 on that last lap. But great driving to Heidfeld. I liked his honest "hero-to-zero" comment in the post-race interview.

[svandamme]

I expected it, and it's in fact a big mistake on Hamiltons behalf

the rules are very clear
5.4 Cutting:
5.4.1 No intentionally cutting corners of track. Two wheels must
always remain on track at while negotiating turns (Curbs count as
track).
5.4.2 If you gain a position resulting from cutting allow the car you
passed to overtake you before continuing a full race pace.
5.4.3 If a cut is unintentional and you do not receive a black flag for it
from rFactor, and you do not gain position from it continue as if it did
not occur. If cut corners continue to happen and you make time up
from them they will be deemed intentional
5.8.5 Passing outside the track or on the apron is not allowed. A driver
gaining positions by such moves should let those who passed
immediately regain their position. A driver failing to due so will be
penalized.



Hamilton did not slow down, and kept going at full race pace, only slowed down just enough for Kimi to get by, and instantly took back that spot.. you can't do that if you're following the rules, because you can't be at full race pace... on that straight, if he were not at full race pace... there would have been more then the half of meter space between Hamiltons nose and Kimi's rear-end... there would have been car lenghts.



i'm not even sure he slowed down, Kimi just had more momentum because he was on the race line through the corner where Hamilton had cut...
in which case 5.4.3 rules it was intentional...
you have to agree, his line was very optimistic going into that corner, he would not have been so bold if that was Monaco, and there was Armco instead of a runout zone

[cashflyer]

WHAT???!!!!!!

Stijn... LH was at KRs left quarter when he was run off track. He was BESIDE him! When he returned to the track, he slowed enough to allow KR in FRONT of him before resuming his press!

F'k the maranello mustang. Ferrari is just upset that their boy screwed the pooch.

[Jims5543]

They missed another penalty, a Torro Rosso car was released into the path of another car in the pits, last race weekend this resulted in a Penalty against Ferrari.

Stijn - good analysis I am sure the Ferrari haters will disagree just the same as they agreed 2 weeks ago with Massa's penalty.

[Noah930]

Originally Posted by svandamme

he would not have been so bold if that was Monaco, and there was Armco instead of a runout zone

That's one thing I noticed, during the race (BTW, I only caught the last 3 laps, but wow, what 3 laps to watch!). The track may still have the same layout as in the past, but with all the sanitary high-traction runoff areas, it certainly doesn't have the same sense of danger as from the Spa of old, does it?

On one hand, that's definitely progress. It's nice not to lose a driver or two every year due to blunt trauma or burns.

But, at the same time, safety is squeezing a bit of the character out of these historic tracks, isn't it? You can look at racing pictures from the 50s, 60s and 70s. Just one little tight snapshot, and you can still tell exactly which track it was/which corner--by the location or the Armco, or a drainage ditch, or the style of the apex berm, or the presence of a certain building, or the location of the crowd. Now, all these tracks look so similar, unless a picture is taken from far enough a distance that you can see some identifiable marker 50 yards off the side of the track, it's hard to tell where the photo was taken. Look at some of those pictures comparing the location of the crowd at Eau Rouge. It used to be that Eau Rough was taken flat out in top gear. It still may be, but in the past, if you got it wrong, you'd likely scatter bits of your car (and quite possibly yourself and maybe some spectators) for a quarter mile. Now, it's so unexpected for injury to occur, that if you get it wrong, you lift off a little, drive along the concrete apron, and maybe not even wreck the car. There's certainly a difference in the consequences, at least psychologically. Safer, yes. But somehow a little less romantic.

Back to Stijn's point: It's nice to have gutsy driving, but I also wish there were slightly greater consequences for having an off, other than having to concede the next straightaway/corner.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by cashflyer

WHAT???!!!!!!

Stijn... LH was at KRs left quarter when he was run off track. He was BESIDE him!
F'k the maranello mustang. Ferrari is just upset that their boy screwed the pooch.

yeah, he was beside him , in a position of disadvantage, the only way he could have made the turn at that speed, was by steering into Kimi...

5.9.2 When two cars are side to side, both cars have to leave room for
the other car and not steer into him, both have the same rights

eg, the rules dictate that Kimi did not have to slow down to let Hamilton make the corner.. and without Kimi slowing down, Hamilton couldn't make it, as clearly demonstrated by him going off piste...He simply did not have the right line to carry the speed he did.

Originally Posted by cashflyer

When he returned to the track, he slowed enough to allow KR in FRONT of him before resuming his press!

barely he was supposed to be not at race pace, until Kimi was well back in the lead... not just 0.05% off the throttle, with less then half a meter clearance...
If he had gone less then race pace, Kimi would have had much more speed then him, in such a way that Hamilton would not have been able to leap back within a second.

the definition of race pace, i think is quite clearly not the speed Hamilton was carrying the split second Kimi's rear cleared Hamilton's nose...

[svandamme]

and for the record, i'm neither for or against Ferrari or McClaren
F1 these days is so bland and safe and boring... i just happened to see the last 20 minutes, when i woke up from my afternoon nap
and for a change it was half interesting because of the rain... Rain @ Spa is always fun to watch...

[Steve PH]

Ultimately LH let KR ahead (when it mattered), the fact that Kimi was slow and Hammy retook him immediately shouldn't really matter I would have thought?

Handing the win to Massa was a travesty.

If this had happened the other way around and Kimi had been penalised for a similar incident I would be equally annoyed. As far as I'm concerned this miss use of the stewards powers will only be a bad thing for F1. Why risk going for an overtake, then sort yourself out, all within what you thought were the rules, only to be punished for it. Best just follow each other around and around in a dull procession.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by Steve PH

Ultimately LH let KR ahead (when it mattered), the fact that Kimi was slow and Hammy retook him immediately shouldn't really matter I would have thought?

it does very much so
rules say you can't be on race pace after cutting corners, Hamilton was.

Originally Posted by Steve PH

If this had happened the other way around and Kimi had been penalised for a similar incident I would be equally annoyed. As far as I'm concerned this miss use of the stewards powers will only be a bad thing for F1. Why risk going for an overtake, then sort yourself out, all within what you thought were the rules, only to be punished for it. Best just follow each other around and around in a dull procession.

But you fail to recognise, that Hamilton did a dumb move in the first place, and he got away clean because there was no armco.

And it was a stupid location to over take Kimi, if he was indeed so much faster
All he had to do, was get in position, and he would have had a perfect opportunity for a clean over take at Kemmel, or at Malmedy/Les Combes

you can't over take where he tried to over take, not on the outside, not if you are at the same level, not even a nose lenght ahead... That's the mistake
he went off, and if you go off, you either loose your car, you loose speed and you loose car lengths...

He did not, because he cut the track, and continued at race pace

Stewards only applied the rules, designed to prevent such advantages...
again, mistake or rather 2 mistakes on Hamilton's behalf.

[Cornpanzer]

Are you kidding me?!?!

Hamilton left the track because he was forced to in order to avoid an accident. Going into the corner, he was ahead of Kimi, had to slow to negotiate the outer line and then Kimi took a deliberate early apex of the second corner to drive hamilton off the track. Kimi KNEW hamilton had that line and it was a DELIBERATE move to shove him off course. If hamilton had been on the inside of the corner and tried to late brake into Kimi's line it would have been another story, but in this case hamilton put a clean move on Kimi, had the position and was forced off the track.

Hamilton did give Kimi the position back. Kimi was clearly ahead. Svan you quote:

5.8.5 Passing outside the track or on the apron is not allowed. A driver
gaining positions by such moves should let those who passed
immediately regain their position. A driver failing to due so will be
penalized.

This does not specify how much the "offending" driver must slow down, nor does it say anything about race pace. In fact, if you follow that to the letter, Hamilton in theory would have only needed to give Kimi a half car length as this was Kimi's "position prior to the "rules infraction".

Aditionally it should be noted that according to Planet F1, there was no protest from Ferrari prior to the ruling. We all know that if Ferrari thought that McLaren had done something wrong, they would have been screaming the moment it happened! This was an arbitrary judgement by the Race stewards and while I root for Hamilton and Massa both, it is becoming harder and harder to refute the accusations that the sport is being manipulated against McLaren!

[Cornpanzer]

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

Nah, I agree with Ferrari here. He cut the track, and then should have clearly let Kimi back into the lead, but it was at best ambiguous. I see the rules enforced properly here. Just my opinion though.

Good race!

-Wayne

He cut the track because he was forced off and he DID clearly let Kimi back into the lead.

[URY914]

I say the penalty was nullified when the Iceman hit the wall.

I'll be pulling on my flame suit now....

[Cornpanzer]

Originally Posted by Jims5543

They missed another penalty, a Torro Rosso car was released into the path of another car in the pits, last race weekend this resulted in a Penalty against Ferrari.

Stijn - good analysis I am sure the Ferrari haters will disagree just the same as they agreed 2 weeks ago with Massa's penalty.

Jim....seriously. You are clearly a Ferrari fan and your comments are so biased, they carry no weight.
Last race, the Ferrari was released right into the PATH of the other car....which means they were en route to contact.
This week, the Toro Rosso was released ahead of the Ferarri. The Ferrari did not need to slow or swerve like we saw in the incident that drew them the penalty. Yes it was close, but no more close than we have seen several times already this year. Two completely different scenarios.

Oh, and while we are on the subject of the last race, can you remind me of how much Kimi was penalized for leaving his pitbox before he was released and injuring two crewmen as well as spilling fuel. There is a clear rule against that too, but apparantly since no other team was involved and nobody filed a protest...well, it just went away.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by Cornpanzer

He cut the track because he was forced off and he DID clearly let Kimi back into the lead.

he forced himself off the track by trying to over take on the outside, in a turn that doesn't allow 2 cars on the racing line...
can't do that

if he had been on the inside, he would have had a case, he would have had the advantage
but he wasn't, so it's his fault...he did not have the right of way

It wasn't Kimi who was pushing to pass , so it wasn't Kimi who forced anything
Hamilton did, and he made the first mistake

second mistake, was not slowing down enough to be below full race pace, and not long enough to undo the advantage he got by cutting

it's not enough to let the other guy in front of you for a split second
you have to slow down , below race pace, he did not.

[Cornpanzer]

Originally Posted by svandamme

he forced himself off the track by trying to over take on the outside, in a turn that doesn't allow 2 cars on the racing line...
can't do that

if he had been on the inside, he would have had a case, he would have had the advantage
but he wasn't, so it's his fault...he did not have the right of way

It wasn't Kimi who was pushing to pass , so it wasn't Kimi who forced anything
Hamilton did, and he made the first mistake

But, by having his nose ahead of Kimi going into the corner it can be argued that Hamilton had the line. Either way, Kimi early apex'd and drove him off the track

second mistake, was not slowing down enough to be below full race pace, and not long enough to undo the advantage he got by cutting

it's not enough to let the other guy in front of you for a split second
you have to slow down , below race pace, he did not.

Again, can you show us in the regs where it talks about "race pace", how much speed you must reduce in percentages and how much didtance you need to give in order to fullfill these rules? Nope, it says you must give up the position...which he did. .[/QUOTE]

[svandamme]

the rules say do not continue at race pace untill the other one catches you up

race pace to me means , at a certain speed where you are competitive..
the fact that he could overtake kimi the second he let him pass, means he was competetive, and thus , to fast

IF he had gone off with gravel, he would have lost seconds... he did not, and did not slow down to compensate the advantage of the cut...

we'll see what Fia says in a few weeks, but my bet is , Massa keeps the win...

[Steve PH]

I still disagree.

Unless the FIA come up with a specific definition of "race pace" then lifting a tad and making sure your competitor is a cars length ahead, would appear to be perfectly acceptable. It seems to me that the stewards moved the goal posts.

[Cornpanzer]

Umm...Kimi could not have passed him unless he had reduced below race pace. Then as you say Hamilton only had to remain below race pace (which he did to allow Kimi to pass) until Kimi was ahead. Hamilton also fulfilled this obligation. Once Kimi was ahead Hamilton resumed speed and passed Kimi (who even had time to throw a couple blocks...which last I check could be a penalty drawing infraction if deemed that they were reckless)

Sorry, but If you admit that Hamilton allowed Kimi to pass , then you also must admit that he fulfilled the obligation of the rules.

Once again, I chuckle when I read Jim C's comments. Reflecting back on the race at Hockenheim, he had this to say about hamiltons pass on Massa.

" that was a really dirty pass, putting your front tire in the sidepod of the other car and pushing it off the track is hardly good racing."

yet, when Kimi does it to hamilton...well...thats different...

Now, just to be clear. I honestly dont feel that Kimi did anything wrong. I only bring this minutia up because others are splitting hairs over a scenario which was nothing more than good racing. Kimi did what he did to maintain his lead. Hamilton did what he had to do to keep from crashing. It was great racing!

This was one of the greatest moments in F1 racing which has now been ruined by the Stewards interferance. If this ruling stands, we will be robbed of the excitment of one of the greatest battles ever between two of the most talented drivers ever in F. This hurts ALL fans whether they be Ferrari, McLaren , or Honda fans. Ten years from now, are you going to show the clip to your kids and try to explain to them that Hamiltons brilliant drive was negated because he slowed 2.3 Kph more when he let Kimi back by or that he should have hesitated 1.421 seconds longer before accelerating again? We are splitting hairs and F1 is becoming exactly what most of us hate about nascar.