+1 (well except for the zombie comments)

+1

500 yards is not what it is going to be for personal protection. Go with the M193, which is more available and take a look at the effectiveness and bullet ballistics of the 55grn M193 inside 150 meters vs. the M855 (62gr round) or heavier at that distance.

The heavier rounds, anything over 70 grns, is somewhat controversial from what I can read. But I do not know the details of the heavier rounds for Personal Protection, I would be careful using the heavier rounds. Someone else should weigh in on the heavier round topic.

What's wrong with heavier rounds? Just accuracy issues?

And why not go for the .30 version? Just curious on your perspective since you sound like you're familiar with these and I've been considering an M1 myself (since you can't get an AR15 here).

I just read something on this regarding the M855 62 grain SS109 5.56 round currently used in the M16 A2 vs. the older M193 round with a 55 grain bullet that was used in the M16 with the 1:10 twist. Anyway, aside from the availability issue of the M855 the amount of energy delivered to the target, which is the lethality related is nearly identical between the two rounds up to about 300 meters. The bullet, upon contact with the target, is designed to tumble at a given velocity. This is where the 200 to 300 meter round effectiveness enters into the picture. This tumble velocity is part of the bullet ballistics, at least as far as I understand the design. So with that velocity being maintained the effectiveness of either round under 250 or so meters is nearly identical. Check out this link: http://www.ak-47.net/ammo/ss109.txt.

The heavier bullets are more accurate at greater ranges. If this is not the issue than from what I understand the point is that the less expensive and more available M193 round will provide nearly identical ballistics for ranges of 200 to 300 meters or less than the M855 or heavier rounds.

Are you considering an M1 Carbine? IMHO, it depends on what you want to use it for? I believe you can get the Ruger Mini-14 in 223 (5.56) so there are options to the AR. If you are looking at the M1 Carbine, you may want to take a look at a simi auto or short barrel shot gun (16"). The Carbine ballistics as I recall are not that impressive.

Check out what others have to say. It does come down to money and individual preference.
Thanks
Dan

I can't imagine ever being justified in defending myself from 500 yds. away. Sure, law and order would have disappeared by then, but I don't see too many long-range sniper situations occurring in real civil unrest. .223 is nice because the guns that use it are usually very easy to lug around, collapseable stock, composite parts, easily broken down, etc. If I had to choose only one long gun to take with me, my M4 would be it. It can reach out and touch someone if necessary, but it's well suited for close-in stuff. Parts grow on trees for these guns and their recoil won't knock my wife down.

I like my AR15, but ammo is very expensive. I'm getting ready to buy 1000 rounds from cheaperthandirt.com since it's the best deal I've found ($382). My 9mm pistols are nice too, and the ammo is cheaper.

Art, don't do it. CTD is a total ripoff. Try www.ammunitiontogo.com

Rick,
Thanks, I'll give them a try...

Sorry to hijack thread...

Rick,
Is this a good deal?

1000rds - .223 DRS 55gr. FMJ Ammo $319.95 $309.95
1000rds - .223 DRS 55gr. FMJ Ammo


This ammo is manufactured with once fired U.S. military brass. The brass will be Lake City (LC) or Winchester (WCC). It all comes off of military bases, so it is guaranteed to be once fired. It is processed and loaded by D.R.S. Manufacturing. They are a licensed and insured manufacturing company. They manufacture a full line of new and reloaded rifle and pistol ammo. This ammo is all loaded on fully automatic military loading machines. They use winchester primers, New winchester 55gr. FMJ bullets, and Hodgdon powder. This is some excellent ammunition, we have sold their ammo for over 7 years and have had no complaints. You will be amazed at how accurate and clean it is. It will come packed loose.

Depending on shipping cost, 320/k is a good deal on .223 these days. My source can only get me 360/k (delivered) on newly manufactured.

ammoman.com is good on pricing (free shipping lots of times) as is georgia-arms.com

m1 carbine doesn't fire the 30/06 it has it's own very hard to find in a pinch .30 carbine round

Art, you have to decide what kind of ammo you want to put through your rifle. I don't care about dirty ammo, so Wolf is fine with me. However, Silver Bear and Gold Bear get great reviews and are much cleaner than Wolf for about the same price. They're all Russian, but it's not old surplus ammo. It's pretty recent. The killer around here is that there are some good local suppliers, but then you have to pay 8.5% sales tax. The places with free shipping are usually more expensive than those that charge for it. If you need to spend over $500 for the free shipping, have a local friend place an order with yours to bump it to over $500. I need to grab another few thousand rounds of .223 soon. I wanted to be up to 10k by the elections and I'm not even at 4k yet.

Alright guys. Sorry. I know M1 doesn't take .30-06. I get it.

Good thoughts all. I like the M1 carbine for its durability and certainly the historical significance is nice. Currently I have my Ruger PC9 carbine for intermediate-range work and it (conveniently) fires the same 9mm luger rounds as my Glock handgun. So that's nice. For longer ranges I recently picked up a vintage Russian M91/30 which I'm sure is an accurate gun (the barrel is very long and has a fair amount of twist to it looking down, but I haven't actually measured it or shot it yet). My only reservations about it are that (1) it only uses 5-round stripper clip (no mags), (2) it uses 7.62x54R ammo which is known for using corrosive primers, so you have to be very diligent about cleaning and (3) it's bolt-action, not semi auto. But it was also very inexpensive and it's a decent looking gun. Then I've got my 12-gauge for "up close and personal" encounters. So I think I'm reasonably okay but it'd be nice to have a higher-power intermediate-to-long-range long gun like an M1 or AR15 or AK-47 too. The only disadvantage is that then there's one more type of ammo I need to buy, but that's a minor inconvenience. Since this is fascist Kalifornia and you can't get an AR-15 or AK (well, you CAN, but it's a PITA) I was thinking more along the lines of an M1 or maybe even just a good semi-auto 30-06. Any suggestions?

go to fulton armory.com fer all yer needs

Jeff, you would be well-served by an AK platform rifle. They're sure to be on the list of whatever ban is coming up next, they're still dirt cheap, grow on trees and the surplus Russian or Chinese ammo for them really does grow on trees. I really need to get one, but have just been too lazy to research what I want and what the best bang for the buck is. I'm hurting for money now and would feel stupid buying such a gun and then not being able to buy enough ammo to make it worthwhile. I guess I'll have to grab something at the next gun show. The only gun I have left that I can part with as a partial trade is an old Arisaka my grandfather got on Saipan. But he had two of them and I know he bored one of them out to .30-06. I don't know which rifle I have, so that makes it kind of hard to sell.

why a pip squeeeeeeeeek 7.62x39 or a .223 shrimp????????????????????????????

VAPORIZE 8 x 8 x 16 solid BLOCK WALLS WITH A .308! ie. bad guy behind wall.


think about that juan REAL DAMN HARD!


OVERPENETRATION is ALWAYS A GOOD THANG! be it SEX or GUNS!

please read col plasters "SNIPER" manual fer penetration values on common items found in urban areas.

my next juan is gonna be either a .50 bolt or a .338 lapua...............

to stave off the mongol(mongoloid-zombee) hordes!!!!!

They've got some Yugoslav SKS rifles on sale down at the local sporting goods shop this week. They're okay I guess. 7.62x39 afaik. Around $400, which is about right for a decent SKS... Whaddya' think about those? Accurate enough?

another point................

if urine a real smart guy.............you would get all .30 caliber rounds(.300 win mag,.308, 30.06, .30 carbine) and thread urine barrels a common thread to fit a SUPPRESSOR for each and everyJUAN!!!!!!!!! or move suppressor from barrel to barrel.

they cant return fire if they dont see or hear incoming rounds!!!!

think about dat juan REAL DAMN HARD!

that choo choo train of thought and actual action is prescribed by nelson ford "the gunsmith" here in phx. az.

heres another choo choo train of thought....................

yer pissed at me............really pissed............and start slinging .223/7.62x39 rounds at me.

urine max accurate fire no matter how "full race" urine gun is , is about 500-600 yds. PERIOD!

i hear rounds incoming.................im a gonna BEAN YER ASS FROM 1200yds iron sighted into a pie plate size upper torso, and tighter with my scoped weapons.

now think about this...................wouldnt you rather keep the mongoloid/zombee horde at a distance?????? be able to shoot thru block walls/vehicles/garbage dumpsters etc?????

tacos fer thought!

You can't go wrong with a M1 Garand from the CMP. Good enough to fend off the Nazi's and other villians.


Cheap Ammo allready loaded up in a 8round clip that inserts into the rifle (yes, clip is the proper term for this item, it's not a spring loaded magazine) You can get ammo loaded good to go for less than .30 a round.

If you do your part you should be able to hit a pie plate @ 200 yards.

And for us in Kalifornia it shouldn't fall onto a ban list as long as we can stop voting for the Zombie lords (Pelosi and company)

You can buy Yugo SKSs for around $200 -- $400 sounds too high.

I prefer my Saiga over my SKSs. The Saiga is an AK with a "sporting" stock. It doesn't take much to modify the Saiga to accept high-capacity AK magazines; and the Saiga is available in .223, .308 -- and 12 gauge (if you can find one), .410 and 20 gauge too.

The 7.62x39 and .223 Saigas can still be found for SKS prices -- though recently, the Saiga prices seem to be quite a bit higher. It seems that people are converting them to "AK" configurations with pistol grip stocks and that is drawing off the supply available in "sporting" configuration.

Nice thing about he AK format is the absurd reliability. Dirty, hot....the damn things just keep firing. You can completely strip the thing in about 10 seconds, dunk it in a river, wipe the water off with your shirt, rub some motor oil on the bolt assembly, then go back firing another 1000 rounds.


btw, despite my enthusiasm, don't ever do what I just described to your gun.....:)

Thanks for that. Yea, I just found a couple online for around $250-$350 so I think they're a little steep. The Saigas are interesting - I posted a video the other day I'd found which was a 12-gauge Saiga converted to full auto (!) Very interesting.

I'd have to check, but given how (deliberately) convoluted and screwy the laws are out here in Commiefornia you can't be too careful.

I do know the M1 and M1 Garand are legal (at least for now).

cmp is offering as well as fultonarms.com m-juan(m-1) garands in 30.06 and .308. those are "GOOD-GUNS" in the eyes of der re-pubic of kalifornication. also cmp i think still has m-1 carbines in various grades.

bought my winchester(all winchester) m-juan carbine for $500 bucks quite a few years back and cherry nra el perfectos are going for a $1000 bucks now.

mausers von der vaterland pulled off of dead ass nazis during snowy russian campaign have been rebarreled to .30.06 and .308. they are reasonable. mitchellarms.com offers real nazi juans if yer into historical guns. 8mm was a hell of a round ask the russians!

Auto Ordinance (Kahr Arms) makes new California-legal M1 carbines:

http://www.auto-ordnance.com/PA-1AO_m1.html

I love my M1 carbines!

The Russian SKS's command a premium because their wood is a lot better. If you plan to buy a plastic stock for it, then just buy a cheapo Romanian or Chinese one for $200-$250. Don't forget to sharpen the bayonet. They're kinda dull out of the box.

Charles, how much good does a suppressor do on a supersonic bullet? I never understood that one. I can see how they'd be great for a .22. But I don't think a suppressor would last through too many .30 cal-based rounds. The gas, temps and pressures have to be unreal. And how does a suppressor do anything to the sonic boom?

Properly constructed suppressors last just fine on high-powered rifles -- including full-auto fire. (If the barrel can survive it, a suppressor made of the same materials will hold up too.)

They don't work like in the movies, but allow firing without hearing protection. The super-sonic crack is not eliminated (since that noise is being generated as the bullet travels through the air), but the suppressor on a high-powered rifle can be effective in helping to conceal the position of the operator.

http://www.advanced-armament.com/large_bore.asp

mister lee.............they are SUPPRESSORS not silencers. that is muy importante.

numero uno.............dry or wet suppressors?

wet uses a fluid. be it toilet water/sea water/new oil/old oil from a burnt up bug mtr..........just about any liquid that will not ignite. these are used fer socom teams. why??? because they shoot alot of rounds and noise goes up after more and more rounds expended. if you were a seal team all you do is release quick-dick release, empty suppressor, refill, and silence is golden again.

with dry suppressors you have baffles(how baffling?) or a material similar to steel wool. this werks very well for quite a long time as long as suppressor is cleaned often. these also can be set up on a quick-dick or a threaded barrel.

once agin YING/YANG............threaded barrels if fuched up by hitting barrel end on hard object can get screwed up and you need to fix asap. quick-dicks offer a little more safety and longevity but at a price. ie. mp-5 lugged barrels.

thread protector is a good idea. i like threaded juans becuz of versatility. i dont own juan yet but its on my wish list. around here its about 3 months or so waiting period for background check, interviews with cop shop, etc. before you are issued your tax stamp.

soooooooooooo if ya wanted a full auto mp-5 with suppressor, you would need 3 stamps. a SBR(short barrel) stamp, a suppressor stamp, and a full-auto stamp. THREE STAMPS (and they are just like postage stamps but bigger) at $200 a whack for a total of $600 bucks plus cost of MP-5.

gemtec and AWC are the 2 mfgs. i have been recommended to look at.

fer .22's a INTEGRAL RUGER is a nice setup, meaning suppressor does NOT come off.

nice if ya just want to use 1 gun. for versatilties sake i would buy a suppressor that would fit MULTIPLE GUNS! ie all barrels threaded the same.

on 22's you use subsonic ammo and all you hear is a PFFFT! like tearing a piece of paper on yer desk. from 10 ft away you dont hear anything. the PFFT is the action coming back.

ditto on 9mms.

und ditto for .30 cal weapons.308/.300wm., 30.06, .30 carbine.

cleaning them is a no brainer.

look at gemtech.com

look at AWC.com. AWC is in snobbsdale aeropuerto right here in our backyard.

the ruger integral stainless amphibian from AWC is about $1200 bucks less stamp which would = $1400 out da door!

the ruger .22 rifles and pistoles are the KATZ ASS for sniping small critters or blasting the poo outta grapefruits from a hottub one night at an undisclosed location somewhere in this state! ask me how i know?????? yuck yuck yuck!

Well, if it really came to a total breakdown in law and order, I think a few folks might just bypass the tax stamp process wrt suppressors. Not that I'd.....

No, you don't need a separate tax stamp for a short-barrel on a machine gun transfer.

Suppressor and machine gun would each require their own stamp, as you explain.

Of course, when you get to machine guns, the $200 tax stamp is pretty "meaningless" in the transaction. The 1986 ban prohibiting the issuance of any new stamps for newly manufactured civilian market machine guns has driven prices of transferable full-autos so high, that the $200 fee represents a pretty small percentage of the overall transaction.

The tax stamp still represents a significant percentage in the cost of a suppressor or SBR.

rick it just doesnt werk that way unless you have yer own machine shop. be prepared/be vigilante. to thread barrels is only about $85 bucks or you can buy BARSTOBARRELS pre threaded and MATCH GRADE fer about any pistol which will tighten up groups. drop in fits!

more fun than a barrel of minkies!

its on my to-do list........get a suppressor or a suppressed .22 to start. just got to get off my arse and start paperwork debacle, and meet new interesting people asking me "WHY?" all 3 months long.

they are cool. check out snobbsdale gun club and look at flavors of suppressors. walther has a real nice suppressed .22 removeable suppressor.

competentone............so on a class 3 machinen-gepistole you only need 2(TWO) stamps? thats cool.

yep class 3's are thru the roof............wish i had bought a few a few years back and sat on them. seems to be about the only SOLID INVESTMENT LEFT ON THIS PLANET! go freeking figure. ???

actually since being in the trades/dillon/mcmillian etc class 3's are kind of "how-hum" to me, after all the years helping them machine components.

now belt fed anythings trip my trigger. ie dillions phlanx system/dos or quattro .50's..............they get my attention real fast anywhere/anytime!

It is an "artificial" market -- supply has not been allowed to meet the demand (due to government action), so prices have risen.

While I do not expect the machine gun ban to ever be repealed, I still cannot bring myself to "invest" in any artificial market. I might buy a machine gun because I wanted one, but not because I thought it would be a good "investment."

A stroke of a pen (making newly manufactured machine guns legal for civilian sales), and any "paper" profit on any machine gun one was holding, would disappear. (In fact, I believe the law creating the ban is still being argued in the courts; I think that ATF could actually interpret some of the rulings the courts have already given and start issuing stamps again.)

Think .22 rimfire as possible currency. Centerfire ammo is reloadable.

maremount m-60 last week at snobbsdale gun club...............$47,000 bucks! YIKES

Machine guns are performing better than real estate ever has. I can't see NFA ever getting repealed unless we truly have a revolution and then your investments will be the least of your worries. And in case the jackbooted thugs are ever truly released on the public, I wouldn't want to be on their class III registry. Those are the first folks to get a visit.