It's dark out. Put your F#%@&! lights on!

[Heel n Toe]

Originally Posted by DasBoot

Why would you stop or change lanes? The vehicle, with its emergency flashers on in the middle lane of the freeway, is obviously moving, no?

You said "What would you do if you came upon a car stopped in the middle of the freeway with their flashers on?"

Make up your mind. LOL

Either way, with flashers on, it's visible sooner.

[DasBoot]

Originally Posted by Heel n Toe

You said "What would you do if you came upon a car stopped in the middle of the freeway with their flashers on?"

Make up your mind. LOL

You missed my point. If you (and everyone else) becomes acclimated to seeing vehicles driving with their flashers on, then when you someday actually come across a vehicle stopped with their flashers on, you might, for a split second, think it is moving (or is it stopped?). BANG!!!

LOL squared.

[Heel n Toe]

Originally Posted by DasBoot

You missed my point. If you (and everyone else) becomes acclimated to seeing vehicles driving with their flashers on, then when you someday actually come across a vehicle stopped with their flashers on, you might, for a split second, think it is moving (or is it stopped?). BANG!!!

There's only a BANG if you're driving like an idiot... aka too fast for conditions.

I have come upon all manner of vehicles in a sudden downpour or in fog... some slowed way down and some stopped ... some with flashers on, some with just brakelights lit.

I hit none of them.

I didn't have to swerve, either.

What about you?

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by DasBoot

Then you'll probably be breaking the law in 49/50 states.

Florida Statute 316.2397...

Ok - so in Florida, you can't drive with your flashers on.

And you quote a statue from ONE state. So, how does that equate to breaking the law in 49 of the 50 states?

I'll check some other state's DMV sites, but I think if you supply such information (49/50 states - flashing is illegal), you should have supplied more references than just one from one state...

Originally Posted by DasBoot

If Brian couldn't see due to the heavy rain, he shouldn't have been driving (or driving at such a speed where he couldn't see ahead). THIS behavior causes the messy, deadly accidents you see every night on the news.

We hit a wall of rain - prior to that wall, it was dry or a mere drizzle. He was driving within an acceptable and safe speed for those conditions. We were going to a DE event - pulling trailers. All those who were in the caravan were veteran drivers and had enough experience pulling a trailer to know that stopping distances are much greater with a trailer given the momentum caused by increased mass.

-Z-man.

[DasBoot]

Originally Posted by Z-man

Ok - so in Florida, you can't drive with your flashers on.

And you quote a statue from ONE state. So, how does that equate to breaking the law in 49 of the 50 states?

I'll check some other state's DMV sites, but I think if you supply such information (49/50 states - flashing is illegal), you should have supplied more references than just one from one state...

Sorry...didn't realize this paper was being graded. I'll get back to you just as soon as I research all 50 states vehicle codes. (Would you like Puerto Rico and other U.S. Possessions, too?).

[DasBoot]

Originally Posted by Z-man

He was driving within an acceptable and safe speed for those conditions.

That's not what you said previously. You stated he was driving faster to catch up and had it not been for your flashers, he wouldn't have seen you.

Sounds like a classic case of "too fast for conditions" if I've ever heard one.

[trekkor]

For as long as I can remember, loaded big rigs climbing a steep grade ALWAYS run with flashers on.

Interstate 80 is a heavily patrolled and traveled highway that sees all weather conditions.
I just can't see ALL of these slow rigs running flashers if it were unsafe or illegal.


KT

[DasBoot]

Originally Posted by trekkor

For as long as I can remember, loaded big rigs climbing a steep grade ALWAYS run with flashers on.

Interstate 80 is a heavily patrolled and traveled highway that sees all weather conditions.
I just can't see ALL of these slow rigs running flashers if it were unsafe or illegal.


KT

It's most likely a law that doesn't get enforced much. In California, the only time a commercial vehicle can use its flashers while moving is across a RR crossing. Once it clears the crossing, they have to turn the flashers off (and I believe this is for vehicles hauling hazardous materials, only).

As to "everyone" doing it, I believe it has something to do with mass mentality. Here is something you see regularly in FL. One idiot sees another idiot doing it and, it becomes commonplace:

[VINMAN]

Originally Posted by DasBoot

If Brian couldn't see due to the heavy rain, he shouldn't have been driving (or driving at such a speed where he couldn't see ahead). THIS behavior causes the messy, deadly accidents you see every night on the news.

Exactly. If conditions are so bad that you have to go at a snails pace, you should be pulled over to the side of the road.

[Heel n Toe]

Snail's pace or not... in low visibility conditions, if you want the azz end of your vehicle to be seen from a greater distance, you would be smart to turn your flashers on.

Read this:

National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, D C 20594
Safety Recommendation

Date: December 13, 1995
In Reply Refer To: H-95-50

Mr. John Standquist
President and Chief Executive officer
American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators
4200 Wilson Boulevard, Suite 1100
Arlington, Virginia 22203-1800

About 1:50 a.m. on Monday, January 9, 1995, a multiple-vehicle rear-end collision
occurred duririg localized fog at milepost 118 on Interstate 40 near Menifee, Arkansas. The
collision sequence initiated when an uninvolved vehicle and the accident lead vehicle entered
dense fog. As the lead vehicle reportedly slowed fiom 65 miles per hour (mph) to between 35
and 40 mph, it was struck in the rear. Subsequent collisions occurred as vehicles drove into the
wreckage area at speeds varying from 15 to 60 mph. The accident eventually involved eight
loaded truck tractor semitrailer combinations and one light-duty delivery van. Eight vehicles were
occupied by a driver only, and one vehicle had a driver and a codriver. Three truckdrivers, the
codriver, and the van driver were killed. One truckdriver received a minor injury, and four
truckdrivers were not injured.

The surviving drivers described the fog as "white out" and "very, very thick, the thickest
fog ever." Other drivers, who were not involved in the accident, reported being unable to see the
end of the hood (perhaps 8 feet) and to observe the lane markings from the truck cab looking
straight down (perhaps 10 feet). Their descriptions indicate severely limited visibility. According
to both driver 4 and driver 5, the emergency flashers were activated on the vehicle 4 semitrailer.
Driver 5 stated that he saw the emergency flashers on the preceding vehicle, reduced his speed
to between 15 and 20 mph, and managed to stop just short of striking vehicle 4. It is likely his
ability to see vehicle 4 and react was enhanced by its hazard flashers.

The measure of the tendency for an object to be easily seen is conspicuity. However,
conspicuity does not refer simply to the physical state of an object or hazard but has another
component. For the hazard to be perceived, it must be filtered through the senses and past
experiences of the driver. A driver can begin the process that leads to addressing a hazard only
when that individual attends to sensory input. The increased luminance of hazard flashers
increases visibility about 50 percent over taillight use alone. The low beams of an oncoming
vehicle can be seen at more than twice the distance of mere taillights. As the fog bank density
increases, nominal visibility decreases and the visibility of various vehicle lights decreases
proportionately.

The April 1995 National Transprtation Safety Board investigative conference Mobile
Collision Warning Technology for Low Visibility Awareness collisions observed that the
tail lamp low luminance of 2-18 candela does not increase the visibility of a vehicle in typical
daylight fog conditions. Flasher lamps have a luminance of 80-300 candela. Researchers indicated
that in daylight when the nominal visibility range of a vehicle is 300 feet, the use of flasher
lamps with a luminance of 80 candela can increase the visibility range to 450 feet. The Safety
Board concluded that the use of four-way hazard flashers can increase the visibility of stopped
or slow-moving vehicles in fog conditions. The increased visibility allowed driver 5 to see and
avoid a collision with the rear of' vehicle 4. The Safety Board also concluded that the use of
emergency flashers by vehicles 1, 2, or 3 may have allowed the following drivers enough time
to have avoided striking preceding vehicles.

A 50-State Safety Board telephone survey found that although 4 States require hazard
flasher use in low visibility conditions, at least 6 States prohibit their use on moving vehicles.
Many States restrict hazard light use to situations such as heavy trucks ascending hills, traveling
below mirimurn speeds on interstate or secondary highways, or being stopped or disabled along
the shoulder of the highway Most States do not address the use of hazard flashers in low
visibility conditions. The Safety Board believes that the American Association of Motor Vehicle
Adrninislrators should develop guidelines, within 2 years, for the use of emergency hazard
flashers during limited-visibility conditions.

Therefore, the National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the American
Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators:

Develop guidelines, within 2 years, for the use of emergency hazard flashers
during limited-visibility conditions. (Class II, Priority Action) (H-95-50)

More:

http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/1995/H95_50.pdf

[teenerted1]

Originally Posted by trekkor

For as long as I can remember, loaded big rigs climbing a steep grade ALWAYS run with flashers on.

Interstate 80 is a heavily patrolled and traveled highway that sees all weather conditions.
I just can't see ALL of these slow rigs running flashers if it were unsafe or illegal.


KT

they are running slower than the posted speed limit and luss indicat that they are a HAZARD and others need to avoid them or there is something wrong.

regular cars dont need to use their HAZARDS just to tell others it is about to rain.
duh, when the rain drops hit my windshield i think i can figure it out myself.
HAZARDS shouldn't be used for road or enviromental issues. just turn on your lights and i will see you just fine.

like they tell you in every driving school/de/auto-cross...LOOK UP. this isn't just so you can anticipate what cones you need to go thru next, but something you need to do in your EVERYDAY driving.

unless you are a hazard to others you dont need to run your HAZARDS.

do you turn on your HAZARDS when you go into a tunnel????
no you turn on your HEADLIGHTS/taillights so you and others can see. the posted signs say to turn on your HEADLIGHTS.

someone in the center lane with his HAZARDS on should be broken down or some other problem and is unable to get to the side or pull off. and is telling others he is a HAZARD

[DasBoot]

Originally Posted by Heel n Toe

[B][COLOR="Blue"]Snail's pace or not... in low visibility conditions, if you want the azz end of your vehicle to be seen from a greater distance, you would be smart to turn your flashers on

Well, seeing that letter & study are from 1995 and it's still illegal in most states to drive with your hazards on, I'd have to say "fail".

This is one of those subjects that will be debated as long as there are motor vehicles. I'll put it right up there with gun rights arguments, tattoos on chicks, etc.

Nonetheless, it is a dangerous and (mostly) illegal practice.

[VINMAN]

I know in NJ and PA, I see signs on Route 78 and 80 that say "all vehicles must use flashers when driving 45 and under"

[Heel n Toe]

Originally Posted by teenerted1

regular cars dont need to use their HAZARDS just to tell others it is about to rain.
duh, when the rain drops hit my windshield i think i can figure it out myself.
HAZARDS shouldn't be used for road or enviromental issues. just turn on your lights and i will see you just fine.

"About to rain"?

That's not relevant to this discussion.

We've been talking about sudden downpours.

Or dense fog.

[DasBoot]

Originally Posted by VINMAN

I know in NJ and PA, I see signs on Route 78 and 80 that say "all vehicles must use flashers when driving 45 and under"

That might explain some of the phenomena occuring in FL. There was a lot of "Northern'ers" in the state.

Then again, the minimum legal speed on FL highways is 45mph. You can be ticketed for driving too slow.

[Heel n Toe]

Originally Posted by DasBoot

Well, seeing that letter & study are from 1995 and it's still illegal in most states to drive with your hazards on, I'd have to say "fail".

This is one of those subjects that will be debated as long as there are motor vehicles. I'll put it right up there with gun rights arguments, tattoos on chicks, etc.

Nonetheless, it is a dangerous and (mostly) illegal practice.

You can say "fail" if you want, but that article substantiates that flashers enable you to be seen from greater distances.

That helps protect you from being rear-ended by idiots who are driving too fast for conditions.

You haven't substantiated that it is dangerous.

Or illegal in most states. At the time of that letter, it was illegal in six states.

[DasBoot]

Originally Posted by Heel n Toe

That helps protect you from being rear-ended by idiots who are driving too fast for conditions.

You haven't substantiated that it is dangerous.

Or illegal in most states. At the time of that letter, it was only illegal in six states.

I concur that flashers can be seen from a greater distance. Not disagreeing at all on that point. Emergency flashers signal to other drivers the vehicle is disabled and stopped in the roadway. Just as a red light means stop, a yellow light means proceed with caution and a green light means go.

However, it becomes dangerous when a person driving up behind a stopped vehicle inadvertently assumes the stopped vehicle is moving

As mentioned a few posts above, why don't people turn on their flashers when entering a tunnel? How about when on a section of roadway that is un-lighted? The "lemmings" have been trained to turn on their hazards in rain, not because they are educated on driving safety/laws, but because they see someone else doing it.

[teenerted1]

Originally Posted by Heel n Toe

"About to rain"?

That's not relevant to this discussion.

We've been talking about sudden downpours.

Or dense fog.

well it seems to only be LEGAL in 4 states so. and 6 say its not. the other 40 may or may not have changed their opinion. the study is 13yrs old and things may have changed. if you have your HAZARDS on I will assume your are having trouble and need to get out of the way. but do as you want. I personally wont use HAZARDS unless i am having a problem or going below the min speed and will be in the right lane or on the shoulder.

about to rain, sudden rain, dense fog...
look ahead if your are under a thundercloud that darkens the sky may be you should think about your speed and conditions that are subject to change and take appropriate actions that the law does allow.

accidents happen and that is why they are called accidents.

i think in parts of Europe it is ILLEGAL to have flashers. that is why the LEDs they sell for bicycles have a STEADY pattern. they also have rear FOG lights there. just a STEADY red light.

[Jim Sims]

Part of the issue is younger people have better night and low-light vision hence they don't feel the need for lights as soon as the older folks. There's a saying in Florida that there's two types of drivers: those that drive after dark and those that won't.

[teenerted1]

darwin at work even when dirctional arrows are in use

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Operations/IncidentResponse/dec07.htm
December 2007 - IR Highlights

Incident Response Driver injured

Posted 12-20-07

Incident Response Team members received a harsh reminder of the dangers they face each day out on the roadways.


IR driver Dave Ball was out roving I-5 on Friday, Dec. 14, when he got called to clear debris on southbound I-5.


A vehicle traveling northbound on I-5 near Fife left the roadway and collided with the cable-barrier. The good news was that the cable-barrier prevented the vehicle from traveling into the oncoming lanes. However, dirt and debris ended up in the southbound lanes and posed a hazard to drivers.


Ball, a seven-year veteran from Olympic Region’s IR crew, pulled his vehicle into the left lane of southbound I-5. He activated his lights and his arrow board, which flashed an arrow pointing to the right – alerting drivers to move over.


Ball grabbed a shovel and began the seemingly routine job of clearing the mud and dirt out of the roadway when he heard a “pop.”


The pop was a SUV that slammed into the back of Ball’s truck, causing his truck to hit him. David had the foresight to know he needed to get out of the roadway and made his way to the median where he collapsed.


These were scary moments for the crew watching from the traffic management center. The camera showed Ball lying motionless in the median, and it seemed like an eternity before troopers reached him. It was also eerie for Ball’s IR brothers and sisters who heard the call that he was down as they drove to the scene.


While emergency crews responded to Ball and the driver of the other vehicle, three lanes of I-5 southbound were closed for two hours. Traffic backed up into King County.


Ball was transported to the hospital, where after he was examined. He was banged up but suffered no major injuries or broken bones. Sadly, the driver of the causing vehicle died at the hospital.


This incident was an important reminder of how Incident Response Team members risk their lives to ensure the safety of the motoring public and how critical it is for motorists to pay attention to the roadway ahead of them.


Ball is at home resting comfortably with his wife Maggie, who is extremely happy to have her husband at home.