318ti with M3 motor- bad idea?

[Normy]

So....240 hp and the rear end from the previous car. How well does this hook up?

Not a bad idea, but it occurs to me that some kid with a Dodge Neon and an aftermarket computer chip and an exhaust would lay waste to this car, despite all the time and effort that has been spent.

[Don't get me wrong; I've wound up in stoplight street-battles with a few of these, and they have kept right up with my 928S2 and it's 330 hp! They give ME hell too!]

-If your going to do a transplant, then it occurs to me that the latest 333 hp M3 motor might be a better idea. Especially if you plan on selling the car after the conversion-

I'm officially voting "nah"-

N!

[serge944]

The e46 m3 engine electronics is very complex and would require standalone engine management to swap it into the e36 chassis.

This car is the equivalent of an SC with a 3.6 conversion. By all means stay away from this horrible swap!!!!!

[Rick V]

"." I like it.

[turbo6bar]

When I was in the hunt, there were a number of well-executed swaps on the market. I see nothing wrong with them if the work is right. Don't let Normy talk you into an absurd E46 engine swap. I personally drove an E30 with M50 (I think) engine swap that was very fun and very quick. I guess some guys need more cylinders to compensate.

BTW, you won't bump the budget a bit for a clean E36 M3? I understand the allure of the hot rods, but a clean M3 will maintain value and you'll never face potential issues (what clutch goes in this beast, anyhow).
luck good, jurgen

[rammstein]

Been looking (online) at M3s of the E36 variety, but it just seems like being sub-$10k is a tall order with them, if I want reliability.

I see plenty for $7k,$8k, but there's always some little footnote in there that bugs me. It will say something like "A/C needs a charge" or "needs tires" or the seats will be totally destroyed etc etc... and then I start adding in the hassle/cost of fixing that stuff, and I get right back to the good ones at $10-12k.

I've been looking at Honda Preludes too (online), and its an exercise in futility. Most have been owned by ricers and have all kinds of horrible things going on. I love how my uneducated eyes can pick out wheels put on backwards, air filters MISSING, etc. The ads are typically written with grammar so bad that I can't fathom owning a car that someone so worthless drove before me. And with those again, the good ones seem to be on the high side (like $11k). The good thing about that I suppose is that a Prelude will likely be low maintenance, fun for AutoX, and probably still be worth a few bucks in 3 years.

Then there's the VW Gen 1 GTis. The vast majority are complete hack jobs, but occasionally I see a really nice one in the $6k range. Just hasn't been one close enough yet, and I'm not gonna do the sight-unseen routine.

The problem is the old pick two routine: fast, cheap, reliable. I am apparently trying to bend the immutable laws of car purchasing.

[aigel]

Originally Posted by turbo6bar

BTW, you won't bump the budget a bit for a clean E36 M3? I understand the allure of the hot rods, but a clean M3 will maintain value and you'll never face potential issues (what clutch goes in this beast, anyhow).
luck good, jurgen

Jurgen is spot on. You can get a factory M3 for not much more - I'd go that route.

George

[MFAFF]

You'll be glad to have kept away from that...

The mix of the e30 rear end and a heavier and longer six is not one that gels particularly well...at least that's how it feels when driving over here.

Just recall the e30 M3 had a four and its balance was better than 'good'.. the 6 cylinder cars lost some of that poise and ability.

Even tho the later front end is a bit different the later engine does put more weight on it and a bit further forward..not necessarily an issue if you are doing mostly straight lines...but you will feel the different balance on the twisties or AutoX...

Whilst it would be fun having such a sleeper I can't help feeling you would get a 'better' car by going the M3 route (not certain if they imported the 4 door to the US) or a very clean 328...might not be ultimately as fast but it will be as fast for as long day to day...

[Big Ed]

Originally Posted by rammstein

I've been looking at Honda Preludes too (online), and its an exercise in futility. Most have been owned by ricers and have all kinds of horrible things going on. I love how my uneducated eyes can pick out wheels put on backwards, air filters MISSING, etc. The ads are typically written with grammar so bad that I can't fathom owning a car that someone so worthless drove before me. And with those again, the good ones seem to be on the high side (like $11k). The good thing about that I suppose is that a Prelude will likely be low maintenance, fun for AutoX, and probably still be worth a few bucks in 3 years.

The problem is the old pick two routine: fast, cheap, reliable. I am apparently trying to bend the immutable laws of car purchasing.

I had one of the last-gen Preludes that I bought new (I think it was a '98 or '99 Type SH). It was reliable. Handled great. BUT, the engine had no torque...really needed to rev the snot out of it. Fun sometimes, a pain in the ass more than not. Traded it in on a BMW 330ci, that was a much more fun engine.

[930LDR]

The real issue you should be concerned about is the quality of the engine swap.
There was a guy at one of my track events who had an E36 M motor swapped into a 318. After passing him headed into a very slow corner I suddenly see a flash of color shoot through my rear-view mirror. Next thing I know he is flying past me (in the grass) headed for the trees. Fortunately he ended up unhurt but the car didn't stop until it was wedged between two trees about 500 yards from the track. Apparently when the motor was swapped into the car some portion of the throttle cable(s) ended up partially pinched somewhere along the way. Basically the throttle got caught wide open and he thankfully had the presence of mind to drive off the track and not run up my rear bumper.

A car like this needs a very thorough PPI.

[serge944]

Originally Posted by MFAFF

You'll be glad to have kept away from that...

The mix of the e30 rear end and a heavier and longer six is not one that gels particularly well...at least that's how it feels when driving over here.

Just recall the e30 M3 had a four and its balance was better than 'good'.. the 6 cylinder cars lost some of that poise and ability.

Even tho the later front end is a bit different the later engine does put more weight on it and a bit further forward..not necessarily an issue if you are doing mostly straight lines...but you will feel the different balance on the twisties or AutoX...

Whilst it would be fun having such a sleeper I can't help feeling you would get a 'better' car by going the M3 route (not certain if they imported the 4 door to the US) or a very clean 328...might not be ultimately as fast but it will be as fast for as long day to day...

All of the s50b32 swapped e30 m3 owners are too busy grinning to complain about loss or poise or ability. If its a great concern, ditch the spare tire, put some lexan in the rear and get a composite trunk lid. You would also be very surprised how close the engine weights are. The main advantage actually comes from how close the s14 is to the firewall.

[einreb]

Originally Posted by serge944

All of the s50b32 swapped e30 m3 owners are too busy grinning to complain about loss or poise or ability. If its a great concern, ditch the spare tire, put some lexan in the rear and get a composite trunk lid. You would also be very surprised how close the engine weights are. The main advantage actually comes from how close the s14 is to the firewall.

No shiat. There was a swapped e30 running at a PCA event last summer that was destroying fast 911's for the DE 'WIN'. Straights... corners... didn't matter.

That being said... I think the price is a bit high for what it is. If it were done better... sure, but there are questions and you could get a decent 'real' m3 for that money.

I have a 72k mile '95 M3 that I'd sell for the upper range of what you've mentioned. I want to move to a spec e30.

[rammstein]

You're kinda far from me, but if you want to post pics I wouldn't complain.

[einreb]

Originally Posted by rammstein

You're kinda far from me, but if you want to post pics I wouldn't complain.

I assume you're referring to pictures of the car.

skip ahead to 7:10 and wait... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IejiFMP82TQ

72k mile '95 'alpine white' with lightweight motorsport forged rims (the fuchs 8 and 9's of the e36 m3 world) bilstein sport shocks matched h&r springs with proper 60k service (t-stat, housing, pump, belts, bushings, etc) .

old pics, I have yet to put anything together for a 'sale' ad...

TRI M COLOR PIN STRIPES!!!!!

[rammstein]

Sexy Stripes! Cool vid- damn, that car sounded nice.

So check out this ride:
http://inline5.com/m3/

$13k is about 5k too much for me, but wow, look what $13k will get you- 385whp?!?!

Wish he had a vid...

[deathpunk dan]

a mk1 or mk2 GTI would also be cool. For me, it would be a tough choice between a really mint time capsule mk1 or 91-92 alpine white 16v.

There's a clean 87 scirocco 16v for $6k on vortex right now. It has 27k on it. Silver. Find some euro lights/bumpers and have fun...

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by rammstein

Well that just went belly up- I wrote the seller and asked him if he was using the stock diff and if he had a list of everything that was updated at the time of the swap.

His answer was "."

I kid you not. He wrote me a period.

Time to move on I guess.

Right question, wrong answer. I thought the ad looked shady, now I KNOW something isn't right. You're smart to run away. Pity too, it's a common swap and makes for a fun car.

You know, your budget allows for a nice E36 328i, or a E30 325is with lots of cash left over. Neither will have the raw power of the M3, but both would be a blast on the track and fairly reliable.

For $8k, is a 928 or 944 out of the question? You should be able to get a nice 928 S4 or 944 S2 for that money. In particular, the S2 can be very reliable if maintained. Much more so than the 951.

You should also look at the 1st gen Audi S4/S6 (UrS4/UrS6). When well taken care of they are bulletproof cars, and the 5-cylinder turbo will easily give you over 300 whp with RS2 mods. It's pretty easy to find them with RS2 goodies, Big Reds, etc for under $10k. They're one of the few Audis I would consider buying. Lots of them here: http://www.audifans.com/marketplace/browse.php

Or you could just buy my C36. Sometimes the automatic is actually a plus.

[rammstein]

944s are getting too old- I mean, even if its been well taken care of, there's going to be a new hose leak or o-ring failure every other week. I can't deal with that without a garage. I was figuring that a 97-ish bimmer would have a few more reliable years in it before that kind of stuff happened.

What I should really do is suck it up and get a Daewoo or something and keep saving money. That's the whole idea here- no more new cars, only buy what I can pay cash for, save money for an eventual house, etc. Problem is, I'd REALLY like to be able to AutoX on weekends in something enjoyable that will work consistently. I think I need to stop looking for a week and get a fresh mind about it.

[rammstein]

And don't send me links to sites with old Audi 200tqs on there- I CAN'T BE TEMPTED. The engine note on an open-exhaust 20v turbo 5 is SO sexy. There's some 200tq wagons on there...

no,no,no, there's a REASON they are so cheap, and you know it, $2000 a month just to keep it on the road, ...

[MFAFF]

Originally Posted by serge944

All of the s50b32 swapped e30 m3 owners are too busy grinning to complain about loss or poise or ability. If its a great concern, ditch the spare tire, put some lexan in the rear and get a composite trunk lid. You would also be very surprised how close the engine weights are. The main advantage actually comes from how close the s14 is to the firewall.

Geez Serge... I never mentionned they weren't having fun...but they sure aren't driving as nice a car...

Over here...and remember I did drive a decent 911 in the US for a few years but never an M3 whilst there...but I have driven a few M3s over here and the e30 is so much more fun to drive than the later ones. Sure the later ones.. especially the e46 is far faster.. but its not as much fun...

To take Porsche's own little saying.. drive a slow car fast...not a fast car slow.

Certainly on the road its more fun .. slower possibly, but more fun. On the track I have managed faster lap times in a full Group A spec racing e30M3 than its successor (in race trim)...but I guess its different.

Ramm...a decent Mk2 GTi would be fun.. not sure if you guys ever received any of the G60 Sport Limited ones... 5 door, 4WD with the 'big G-Lader'engine...something like 200bhp stock...not as 'throwable' as a 2WD one but faster overall...each wheel is doing far less work and it really shows...again on driving over here..

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by rammstein

And don't send me links to sites with old Audi 200tqs on there- I CAN'T BE TEMPTED. The engine note on an open-exhaust 20v turbo 5 is SO sexy. There's some 200tq wagons on there...

no,no,no, there's a REASON they are so cheap, and you know it, $2000 a month just to keep it on the road, ...

Actually, when I did some research on the UrS4 several years ago I found that they are quite reliable. Off of the top of my head, there's the brake bomb (accumulator) that tends to go bad, power seat motors and heat (like every other German car on earth), and just regular maintenance stuff. There's no real achilles heel to them. Not saying they're a Civic either, but I'd say they're at least as reliable as most other German cars and much more reliable than a modern Audi. I'd happily consider a UrS4/S6 if I found one.

From someone who's been there, trust me, a Japanese car just isn't going to do it for you. Once you get European cars in your blood, the others just don't do it for you. I tried to own a Mazda Protege5, which was a very reliable and nice driving car. But it didn't have that extra intangible that makes European cars so great. The best advice is to find an EXCELLENT example of something. Don't get so caught up in an M3 that you buy a neglected one because it's all you could afford (for instance). I'm repeating myself, but take a serious look at E36 328i or 328is. Your budget will buy a mint condition one, and it's only a few mods away from a great weekend autoX toy. They aren't as fast as an M3, but they certainly are NOT slow.