Drove a Prius today . . .

[lendaddy]

Imagine if they came out with an "Apple" themed Prius!!!! OMG I think I just wet myself.

[jyl]

Yeah, I don't understand the mpg of the European diesels. On the one hand, people claim BMW MB VW etc in Europe sell incredible luxury performance turbodiesels that get 50 mpg. On the other hand, when they bring these vehicle to the US, the mpg is nowhere near the hype.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20081111/FREE/811119977

BMW on Tuesday released fuel-economy and pricing details for its upcoming diesel versions of the 3-series and X5. The diesels will be shown at the Los Angeles auto show next week, ahead of their launch in the U.S. market.

The sedan, badged the 335d, is rated at 23 mpg in city driving and 36 mpg on the highway, bettering original estimates. It will cost $44,725, including destination charges when it arrives in December.

The X5 xDrive35d is rated at 19 mpg in the city and 26 mpg on the highway. It will sticker at $52,025, including destination when it arrives in January.

So something isn't adding up. Either BMW's engineers are morons, or the dieselers' hype is overblown, or something else.

I do note that all lot of the hype "mpg" claims use Imperial gallons, which are 1.2 US gallons, thus overstating mpg by 20%. 35 mpg (US gal), overstated by 20%, becomes 42 mpg.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by jyl

Yeah, I don't understand the mpg of the European diesels. On the one hand, people claim BMW MB VW etc in Europe sell incredible luxury performance turbodiesels that get 50 mpg. On the other hand, when they bring these vehicle to the US, the mpg is nowhere near the hype.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20081111/FREE/811119977

BMW on Tuesday released fuel-economy and pricing details for its upcoming diesel versions of the 3-series and X5. The diesels will be shown at the Los Angeles auto show next week, ahead of their launch in the U.S. market.

The sedan, badged the 335d, is rated at 23 mpg in city driving and 36 mpg on the highway, bettering original estimates. It will cost $44,725, including destination charges when it arrives in December.

The X5 xDrive35d is rated at 19 mpg in the city and 26 mpg on the highway. It will sticker at $52,025, including destination when it arrives in January.

So something isn't adding up. Either BMW's engineers are morons, or the dieselers' hype is overblown, or something else.

I do note that all lot of the hype "mpg" claims use Imperial gallons, which are 1.2 US gallons, thus overstating mpg by 20%. 35 mpg (US gal), overstated by 20%, becomes 42 mpg.

Now, that is a very good point, makes you wonder what that Ford that is claimed to get 65MPG really gets.

[turbo6bar]

Originally Posted by jyl

Yeah, I don't understand the mpg of the European diesels. On the one hand, people claim BMW MB VW etc in Europe sell incredible luxury performance turbodiesels that get 50 mpg. On the other hand, when they bring these vehicle to the US, the mpg is nowhere near the hype.

The US EPA mileage system underrates diesel engine efficiency. Typical mpg on diesel-engined vehicles is higher than rated numbers.

See a recent episode of Top Gear where even a Jaguar diesel got well over 50 mpg, despite being rated for around 35 mpg combined. Even accounting for Imperial gallons, this is still really good (heavy, medium-sized sedan).

Those 2008 CDIs have to get better mileage than rated. My mum's 95 diesel Merc gets 27-29 mpg city or highway.

[jyl]

I wonder if you can combine a modern diesel engine with a Prius-type hybrid system.

That way you get the diesel's efficiency over gasoline when the car is using the ICE (internal combustion engine), and the hybrid's ability to turn off the ICE whenever its not needed (which is a lot of the time).

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by jyl

I wonder if you can combine a modern diesel engine with a Prius-type hybrid system.

That way you get the diesel's efficiency over gasoline when the car is using the ICE (internal combustion engine), and the hybrid's ability to turn off the ICE whenever its not needed (which is a lot of the time).

Yes - that's the angle that Mercedes-Benz is taking. If you google S400 Hybrid or MB-Hybrid, you should find more info on that project.

-Z

[gprsh924]

Originally Posted by the

Why don't the turbodiesels do very well in the USA EPA mileage tests? Certainly aren't getting "similar mileage" to a Prius.

2008 Mercedes ML320CDI turbodiesel EPA: 18 mpg city / 24 mpg hwy

2008 Mercedes ML350 gas EPA: 15 mpg / 20 mpg

Episode 4 of this season of Top Gear...They do a mileage race where they have to drive 750+miles on one tank of gas...Clarkson chooses a Jaguar XJ6-TDVI. It supposed to get 35 mpg but he manages to get 53 mpg and he didn't really drive to hypermile it.

May gets 63 mpg out of his subaru forester and hammond gets 80mpg in his Volkswagen polo.

[jyl]

Are the Japanese behind on diesel technology?

Asking, I don't have any idea, but notice that you don't hear much about Toyota, Honda, etc diesels.

The other direction I like is the plug-in hybrid.

Some Prius owners have installed the Hymotion auxiliary battery pack and mods which give the car appx 40 mile range on battery alone. They charge from household 110v each night. When the car is driving from the aux battery, they get >100 mpg (the gas engine will still kick in if the throttle is pressed far enough). When the aux battery is discharged, the car drives like a normal Prius. Depending on commute length, these drivers are reporting appx 80 mpg average. For us, daily driving is about 20-40 miles and with a similar system, we might buy gasoline once every other month. The electricity costs something, but much less than pump gasoline.

I can see a diesel-plugin-hybrid making the current Prius look like a gas guzzler. "Only 44 mpg?" we'll laugh, "my 2011 Toyota-Benz hybrid diesel plugin gets 150 mpg and I charge it from the house's solar panels . . . "

[mikester]

Originally Posted by Heel n Toe

Mikester, RWebb said the Prius batteries "last quite a while"... and later says the Prius has "an 8-yr./100000-mi. warranty"... in response to others' discussion of the high battery replacement cost issue.

Are the batteries warrantied for 8-yr./100000-mi.?

I believe that is correct.

[cairns]

Rwebb

Please note I'm not right winger- I'm a registered Democrat. But at least I know where you're coming from. If the car makes a political statement for you that's great- post it in the Politics section.

Second you're flat wrong. A quote for the battery is readily available on the web and at your local dealer. Look it up. They're expensive and they're not at all easy to recycle.

As to resale values; Kelly Blue Book reports that a 100,000 mile 2004 Prius in good conditon brings $8,675 at trade in. In excellent condition it brings $9,475. There are plenty out there so if you really do want one for half price I suggest you do your own looking.

Warren Brown, the automotive editor of the Washington Post, (a liberal writer for a liberal paper) states that he thinks yesterdays hybrids will be about as valuable as yesterdays laptops. I don't always agree with Warren but in this case I do. The current hybrids are pretty primitive and I think the technology will advance much more quickly in the near future. My 2004 Imac isn't worth anywhere near what a new one is and has half the capability. I have no doubt that by 2010 it'll be worthless.

Third, if you believe in the Consumer Reports mantra you really should be in a Buick.

Finally, Ben is right. In short, the car is much more about appearing to save the planet than actually saving it. And their owners and proponents seem to be awfully defensive when the facts are pointed out.

If you really want to save the planet buy a Deux Cheveux. At least you won't look like a dweeb in a Prius with some stupid political statement on the back.

[vash]

i believe nissan has the altima coming out with a diesel this next year.

japan builds killer diesels. isuzu comes to mind.

[vash]

i just wish someone (nissan or toyota) would do a half ton truck with a efficient diesel motor.

i always hear rumblings, but havent seen anything firmed up yet.

[Jim Richards]

IMO, by buying these "primitive" hybrid vehicles, the early adopters are helping the manufacturers stay interested in developing the truly energy efficient, reasonable performing, and economically viable cars of tomorrow. I'll give their smug a pass because I know we'll see better cars because of it.

[the]

Originally Posted by Jim Richards

IMO, by buying these "primitive" hybrid vehicles, the early adopters are helping the manufacturers stay interested in developing the truly energy efficient, reasonable performing, and economically viable cars of tomorrow. I'll give their smug a pass because I know we'll see better cars because of it.

I agree with that. Who knows what the future holds, but it doesn't seem likely that in 50 years new cars will be straight gasoline internal combustion engines like we have today. And, to get where ever it is we are going to go, you have to have people/companies trying different things, i.e., taking the first steps.

With the Prius, I was just surprised by how it drove. My expectations were different than the reality. Part of it is because of how smooth and "space age" the Prius looks - IMO the driving experience doesn't match the looks. The other part is it's been a while since I've driven a 4 cylinder. Maybe the Prius doesn't drive that different than a Corolla or Camry 4 cylinder.

I wasn't expecting it to be an AMG Mercedes, but it was more coarse and underpowered than I thought it would be. But then again, the owner describes it as having "a lot of power," to her it does. I couldn't really agree, as I had my foot to the floorboard going up a slight incline.

As far as diesels, I don't know about them in the US. I also drove a ML320CDI last week (I'm looking for a car for my dad, he puts on a lot of miles golfing in Cal. 6 days a week and wants high mileage). I know some here swear the new diesels are as smooth and quiet as gas engines, but having driven 2 CDIs now, I just can't agree.

Yeah, they aren't like an 80s Mercedes. They certainly don't smoke or smell. But there is no doubt it is a diesel, from the second you turn the key.

My prediction after trying them out myself: Americans won't buy the BMW and Mercedes diesels that are now coming to the US, not in any large numbers. I know they sell well in Europe, but Europeans have always had different expectations in their cars than Americans, and Americans as a whole won't take to the diesels.

[jyl]

KBB must depend on location. Here I get $11.5K for 2004 Prius 100K mi base version in exc condition. This was a car w/ base price $20K, so not much depreciation vs other cars.

Toyota's price for a replacement Prius battery is $3,000. Or, Prius batteries can be professionally reconditioned for about $1,500, when the time comes.

Most Prius go to well over 100K miles on the original battery. As of June 08, Toyota's out-of-warranty battery replacement rate was 0.003%. My fathers' Gen 1 Prius has 140K miles on the original battery.

And, as shown above, if you're afraid of the battery going "poof" at 100K, you can sell the car and experience less depreciation than with practically any other car.

Finally, the problem with the "yesterday's laptop" analogy is that the workload of a laptop increases very year, as new things like Vista, DX11 games, YouTube, HD video, etc emerge. Eventually an old laptop can't do the job. The workload of a car stays the same, so long as roads and gas are around. A 2008 Prius will be as driveable etc in 2013 as it is now. Sure, it will be old technology, but same with any other 2008 model car.

The idea that Prius are too "expensive" to maintain or own for a long time is laughable.

I have a 1996 Range Rover County LWB with every bell and whistle, this was $70K car when new, after sucking up $1-2K in repairs per year since going ex-warranty its now worth about $2K. Now that's an expensive piece of crap.

Originally Posted by cairns

Rwebb

Please note I'm not right winger- I'm a registered Democrat. But at least I know where you're coming from. If the car makes a political statement for you that's great- post it in the Politics section.

Second you're flat wrong. A quote for the battery is readily available on the web and at your local dealer. Look it up. They're expensive and they're not at all easy to recycle.

As to resale values; Kelly Blue Book reports that a 100,000 mile 2004 Prius in good conditon brings $8,675 at trade in. In excellent condition it brings $9,475. There are plenty out there so if you really do want one for half price I suggest you do your own looking.

Warren Brown, the automotive editor of the Washington Post, (a liberal writer for a liberal paper) states that he thinks yesterdays hybrids will be about as valuable as yesterdays laptops. I don't always agree with Warren but in this case I do. The current hybrids are pretty primitive and I think the technology will advance much more quickly in the near future. My 2004 Imac isn't worth anywhere near what a new one is and has half the capability. I have no doubt that by 2010 it'll be worthless.

Third, if you believe in the Consumer Reports mantra you really should be in a Buick.

Finally, Ben is right. In short, the car is much more about appearing to save the planet than actually saving it. And their owners and proponents seem to be awfully defensive when the facts are pointed out.

If you really want to save the planet buy a Deux Cheveux. At least you won't look like a dweeb in a Prius with some stupid political statement on the back.

[lendaddy]

The battery in the Prius is not some previous unknown technology. It degrades over time just like all the other battery technologies we have. The fact that it's still physically in the vehicle doesn't mean it's working anything close to it's original potential.

[jyl]

He's getting 45 mpg in town and 50 on highway with the 140K mile Prius and its 140K mile battery. I.e., it is working okay. No doubt not "as new" but still working good enough.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Jim Richards

IMO, by buying these "primitive" hybrid vehicles, the early adopters are helping the manufacturers stay interested in developing the truly energy efficient, reasonable performing, and economically viable cars of tomorrow. I'll give their smug a pass because I know we'll see better cars because of it.

you are a smart man.

Porsche had to build the 356 before it could build a 917.

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by jyl

He's getting 45 mpg in town and 50 on highway with the 130K mile Prius and its 130K mile battery. I.e., it is working okay. No doubt not "as new" but still working good enough.

Wow, he's doing better than the new average, maybe his is gaining potential over time!

[jyl]

Originally Posted by lendaddy

Wow, he's doing better than the new average, maybe his is gaining potential over time!

No, that's his driving style. He drives like an old man - well, he is an old man - and has always gotten above-average mpg on the Prius.