BART Shooting

[Gogar]

The cop resigned. Unfortunately, news reports have confirmed that the kid is still dead.

[Jeff Higgins]

Too bad the videos are already out. It would have been interesting to see what the cops would have said in their official report had they been unaware of the videos. I'm sure it would have been presented as a life and death struggle with an armed lunatic, that they were all lucky to survive. Conflicting statements from the other "armed and dangerous" suspects would be summarily brushed aside.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the wide proliferation of cheap video rcording devices is doing more to expose police missconduct and abuse than anything else in history. It used to be the citizen's word against the cop's (assuming the citizen lived...) and the cop always won. The tide is turning.

I've also mentioned that you will have no better friend than a good cop, and I firmly believe that. In that context, it would have been really interesting to to see if there were any good cops on the scene, who would have done the right thing, not knowing such damning video had been taken. Maybe, maybe not. Now we will never know.

[widebody911]

It would have been interesting to see what the cops would have said in their official report

An excellent example of this was the beat down of a cyclist in NY a while back - the video was completely at-odds with the cop's report. http://gothamist.com/2008/07/29/cyclist_thrown_from_bike_by_cop_is.php

Makes you question the cut-and-dried nature of the recent "Nazi" shooting, doesn't it?

[willtel]

If the public hadn't been present and recording footage I'm sure the report would have ended up a lot like this.

http://www.sfbg.com/entry.php?entry_id=7798

My question is what are the other perps who are being detained supposed to do? If the other kid sitting on the floor would have went for an officers gun after the shooting would he have been justified in defending himself with deadly force? If he got up to run would they charge him with resisting? I don't think I could continue to take verbal orders from someone who just shot another person who they are responsible for protecting. I would have been looking for ways to overpower one of the officers to obtain a weapon in hopes to even the odds.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by widebody911

It would have been interesting to see what the cops would have said in their official report

An excellent example of this was the beat down of a cyclist in NY a while back - the video was completely at-odds with the cop's report. http://gothamist.com/2008/07/29/cyclist_thrown_from_bike_by_cop_is.php

Makes you question the cut-and-dried nature of the recent "Nazi" shooting, doesn't it?

That's precisely the case I had in mind as I was typing that, Thom. That, and the poor old Pollack that got beaten and zapped by the Mounties at the airport.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by srandallf

wow flat out murder. im speechless

what a world we live in

And people wonder why i rant about cop abuses here on these forums.

Unbelievable.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by widebody911

It would have been interesting to see what the cops would have said in their official report

An excellent example of this was the beat down of a cyclist in NY a while back - the video was completely at-odds with the cop's report. http://gothamist.com/2008/07/29/cyclist_thrown_from_bike_by_cop_is.php

Makes you question the cut-and-dried nature of the recent "Nazi" shooting, doesn't it?

Which is precisely why i made 'such a fuss' about it when others said that the details coming out conflicted with the Cops initial report.

And to think people actually gave me flak for merely asking some hard questions.

[Steve Carlton]

I just can't believe that Johannes Mehserle intentionally shot Oscar Grant. I'm sure it was some kind of mistake, either thinking he had the Taser or accidentally pulling the trigger of his gun. I have no idea how good the training is that BART police get. A mistake isn't murder.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

I just can't believe that Johannes Mehserle intentionally shot Oscar Grant. I'm sure it was some kind of mistake, either thinking he had the Taser or accidentally pulling the trigger of his gun. I have no idea how good the training is that BART police get. A mistake isn't murder.

Yeah well dead is dead, either way.

[Shawn 357]

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

I just can't believe that Johannes Mehserle intentionally shot Oscar Grant. I'm sure it was some kind of mistake, either thinking he had the Taser or accidentally pulling the trigger of his gun. I have no idea how good the training is that BART police get. A mistake isn't murder.

I understand what you are saying but mistake or not that kid isn't alive anymore. When I was 18 I almost got shot while reaching for my license and registration after the cop requested that I get my license and registration....maybe that is why I only see one way to look at this? From my perspective (and again I have only seen this thread and nothing else) it looks like with three cops on that guy he didn't look like much of a threat. Either way this is sad.

[Nine17]

Hindsight is always 20-20... Watching the videos, I can't believe that police officers have to go out in the middle of the night and break up fights between a bunch of drunk low-lifes on a public transit system which should be used safely and respectfully by all members of the public... It looks like complete chaos due to bad choices by a bunch of self-centered drunkards... The deceased person wasn't an immediate threat to the officers, but there appear to be threats all around from a drunk, surly, self-centered crowd... The angle of the shot appears to be that of a weapon being unholstered unsafely (with a finger on the trigger)... The discharge of the firearm appears to have been negligent but unintentional... A tragic and unnecessary loss of life...

[competentone]

Originally Posted by Nine17

Hindsight is always 20-20... Watching the videos, I can't believe that police officers have to go out in the middle of the night and break up fights between a bunch of drunk low-lifes on a public transit system which should be used safely and respectfully by all members of the public... It looks like complete chaos due to bad choices by a bunch of self-centered drunkards... The deceased person wasn't an immediate threat to the officers, but there appear to be threats all around from a drunk, surly, self-centered crowd... The angle of the shot appears to be that of a weapon being unholstered unsafely (with a finger on the trigger)... The discharge of the firearm appears to have been negligent but unintentional... A tragic and unnecessary loss of life...

Well said.

Both officers jump back away from the suspect just before the one draws and fires. I don't know if it was a mistake -- as mentioned earlier -- and in the stress of the moment, the officer thought he was pulling and firing his Taser, or if it was an unintentional discharge due to poor firearm training/handling.

The language in the audio on the one video is a pretty good indication of the hostility of the crowd. The suspect who ended up being shot was fighting with the officers. I'm wondering if he was emboldened by the crowd (and the probable alcohol in his system) and made moves/comments indicating he was armed?

One thing is for sure, the incident will give the self-centered, low-life (usually drunk or drugged up) savages a reason to riot.

[SLO-BOB]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine17
Hindsight is always 20-20... Watching the videos, I can't believe that police officers have to go out in the middle of the night and break up fights between a bunch of drunk low-lifes on a public transit system which should be used safely and respectfully by all members of the public... It looks like complete chaos due to bad choices by a bunch of self-centered drunkards... The deceased person wasn't an immediate threat to the officers, but there appear to be threats all around from a drunk, surly, self-centered crowd... The angle of the shot appears to be that of a weapon being unholstered unsafely (with a finger on the trigger)... The discharge of the firearm appears to have been negligent but unintentional... A tragic and unnecessary loss of life...

...and...

Well said.

Both officers jump back away from the suspect just before the one draws and fires. I don't know if it was a mistake -- as mentioned earlier -- and in the stress of the moment, the officer thought he was pulling and firing his Taser, or if it was an unintentional discharge due to poor firearm training/handling.

The language in the audio on the one video is a pretty good indication of the hostility of the crowd. The suspect who ended up being shot was fighting with the officers. I'm wondering if he was emboldened by the crowd (and the probable alcohol in his system) and made moves/comments indicating he was armed?

One thing is for sure, the incident will give the self-centered, low-life (usually drunk or drugged up) savages a reason to riot.

Wow! The kid was handcuffed and they killed him. You guys are a trip.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by competentone

Well said.

Both officers jump back away from the suspect just before the one draws and fires. I don't know if it was a mistake -- as mentioned earlier -- and in the stress of the moment, the officer thought he was pulling and firing his Taser, or if it was an unintentional discharge due to poor firearm training/handling.

The language in the audio on the one video is a pretty good indication of the hostility of the crowd. The suspect who ended up being shot was fighting with the officers. I'm wondering if he was emboldened by the crowd (and the probable alcohol in his system) and made moves/comments indicating he was armed?

One thing is for sure, the incident will give the self-centered, low-life (usually drunk or drugged up) savages a reason to riot.

Are you ****ing kidding me?

You all but have this painted as the HAND CUFFED LAYING FACE DOWN VICTIMS FAULT.

Some of you people are bewildering, truly. Bewildering. There is a laundry list of charges that should be applied here, and this ex cop should never walk the streets again.

Ever.

Originally Posted by SLO-BOB

Wow! The kid was handcuffed and they killed him. You guys are a trip.

Like i said....

Bewildering.

In fact, it's almost sickening.

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

I just can't believe that Johannes Mehserle intentionally shot Oscar Grant. I'm sure it was some kind of mistake, either thinking he had the Taser or accidentally pulling the trigger of his gun. I have no idea how good the training is that BART police get. A mistake isn't murder.

Are you freaking kidding?

This is a cold blooded execution OR the single most criminally negligent and inept TOTAL MORON of all time.

A mistake IS murder when someone dies because you're so effing stupid you shoot a PROSTRATE HANDCUFFED AND SUBDUED SUBJECT.

Amazing. Truly...

You know what's tragic? That someone as OBVIOUSLY stupid as you guys are portraying this cop to be was ever given a gun and badge to begin with. CLEARLY if this is an unintentional act, then it is a 100% indictment of BART's selection and training programs.

Frankly, i want to know what the hell ANY ONE would even feel it would be justified to taze a handcuffed, non resisting prostate subject. And what kind of idiot would do that with all those cameras so OBVIOUSLY present?

Top to bottom, this entire incident is a total disaster.

[ikarcuaso]

Originally Posted by incompetentone

Well said.

Both officers jump back away from the suspect just before the one draws and fires.

Uh, what video did you watch. They stepped back as a result of the shot fired. Hello?

Originally Posted by incompetentone

I'm wondering if he was emboldened by the crowd (and the probable alcohol in his system) and made moves/comments indicating he was armed?

Uh, right.

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Are you ****ing kidding me?

You all but have this painted as the HAND CUFFED LAYING FACE DOWN VICTIMS FAULT.

C'mon man, the crowd emboldened him.

[competentone]

I looked at the video frame by frame -- it looks like the officers got the hand cuffs on one hand, but the guy is still fighting and one hand is still free. I'll admit that the videos I have looked are poor, so I will stand corrected if I'm wrong.

I do find it disturbing the way people will sit behind their keyboards and be critical of officers in an extremely stressful situation. It is obvious some of you have never been on the streets in potentially dangerous situations.

[vash]

people the situation sucks to high heaven...

i love our law enforcement. my brother is one. IMHO, the cops are held to a higher standard, or should be. they should lead by example, and wield authority wisely. they are totally under the microscope 24/7. they are trained, and re-trained (or should be). no cowboy, tough guy stuff. they eff up, sorry...OUT

i asked my brother if he heard about the situation. i was surprised he said no. he researched it, and found the video. he also watched it with other training officers. his opinion is that the perp was under control already. dog piled, and outnumbered. no need to pull the pistol.

personally, i am surprised they didnt watch the surrounding "elements" more closely. those cops are taught holds that subdue with effiecency. my brother once showed me some move to put on cuffs, i was not able to struggle in seconds. i think he was just twisting my wrist and thumb.

[David]

There was a similar incident in Houston last week. Fortunately the victim lived, unfortunately his future baseball career is probably over.

It appears the cop figured a black kid in a rich neighborhood must be up to no good and probably driving a stolen car. I guess the cop never figured he could be the son of a retired professional baseball player

His mother and father witnessed the shooting in their driveway.

http://cbs13.com/national/Robert.Tolan.shot.2.902245.html

[vash]

wow.

[SLO-BOB]

Originally Posted by competentone

I do find it disturbing the way people will sit behind their keyboards and be critical of officers in an extremely stressful situation.

I do too. But, that's not the case here. Had the cop been backed against the wall by the angry mob, I might be a little more understanding. He shot someone who was clearly not a threat. The pistol never should have come out at all. He is guilty of murder and should be arrested for his crimes.