Concealed vs. Open Carry
 

Being from up north, I am a little bit uninitiated to this whole CCW thing you have in the states. It seems to me that a lot of states (most?) permit some sort of concealed carry, but far fewer permit open carry.

What is the reasoning for that?

Illinois is one of two states that permits neither.

There are two good reasons why concealed carry is more prevalent:

1) Criminals don't know who is armed and who is unarmed. They have to be much more cautious. They may be in a situation where no one is armed, but they don't know that for sure.

2) Many average citizens are uncomfortable around guns.

Good question. I think the reasoning is that open carry would scare people??

I think open carry is actually by county here. The county I moved from in Nebraska had no law against open carry, it was perfectly legal. No one did it because there was no need.

Personally I think both should be allowed.

The theory, I think, is that openly carrying a firearm is intimidating to others and/or appeals to people who want to posture and look tough/dangerous. Maybe a fuzzy line between carrying openly and "brandishing" - how do you interpret someone touching the butt of his gun, gesturing toward it, pointedly turning to expose the gun, etc?

In theory, a concealed firearm cannot be used to intimidate or posture, since the license requires that no-one know you are armed.

I haven't thought real hard about whether this theory is valid, but I tend to agree with it. When my wife and kids are out and about, I don't really want them surrounded by gang-bangers displaying their weapons. Also, I don't see how a law-abiding person benefits by carrying openly. Besides ensuring that you're the first one to be shot in an armed robbery.

Actually, plenty of states allow open carry too.....on the books, but not really in practice. Virginia allows it, but you can be assured of a police encounter if you walk into a 7-11 carrying openly. You won't get arrested or cited, but you'll get a talking to. I always took VA's open carry to mean I didn't have to try too hard to keep it concealed. If I was printing or bent down to pick something up and the holster in the small of my back showed, I was not in legal trouble. In states with no open carry law, that could get me into serious hot water.

In Arizona open carry is legal and a pretty common sight. I do it regularly on my bike, as wearing full riding gear makes it difficult to draw from concealment. I also like offending drivers with California plates when I pass them and let them see my right hip. When my wife and I take a walk through the park or to the store at night after dinner, I usually carry openly too. It's a very common sight around here at night and it lets potential trouble makers know you're not going to be their easiest victim..... and let's them know before they even approach you. If they assume you're unarmed, it tends to encourage the idiots and I'd rather avoid such encounters altogether. When I'm in a public place with a lot of people like a shopping mall or Wal-Mart, I keep it concealed.

Nice thing about concealed is you can use your own discretion as to what places you want to carry into and no one knows you are carrying.

It's not a fuzzy line at all per AZ law. Brandishing starts with unholstering. If it's holstered, especially in a rentention or thumbreak holster, there's no mistaking it at all. If you get into a traffic or parking lot dispute, lift your shirt and rest the heel of your hand on the gun while walking up to someone, then you could be charged with threatening. but even that's unlikely. First quesiton a cop asks when they get a call about such a thing is, "Did he touch the gun or display it in a threatening manner?" I've never heard of anyone doing that. Everyone who carries knows they'll get hammered if they mess up with the gun and I certainly take that stuff seriously. My gun will only ever come out of the holster when there is a clear threat to life or limb, nothing less.

So if you place your hand on the grip of a still-holstered gun, does that qualify as brandishing under AZ law?

Business owners can openly carry, and that makes sense for some cash heavy businesses like pawn shops, and check cashing places. Not so sure I like the idea of folks openly carrying. Do we want 18 year old guys with glocks on their hips roaming the street? If they can carry a pistol, why not a shotgun? Nope, don't like where that ones going....

Rick touched on some of the reason for Open Carry.

Open carry is easier, especially in the summer time

Open carry allows quicker access to the firearm.

Concealled carry is not supposed to be SO concealed that no one will ever know. It is basic covering of the firearm, so that in general, people will no know. I spotted a Sky Marshal, who was carrying concealed, because of the way he was dressed. Most people wouldn't suspect him. But I know, from carrying, how to do the basic concealment.

Most people use some sort of IWB, Inside the Waist Band, holster, which clips to your clothing, and lets you put the gun in the holster. The butt usually above the waist band, requiring you to keep your shirt untucked. This is how I knew the sky Marshal was carrying.

Some of the newer holsters use clips which allow the shirt to be tucked-in, inside of a slot between the hoster and the clip. The belt covers the clips and the shirt is left a little bit out to cover the top of the clip.

I also use an OWB, Outside the Waist Band holster, aka a standard belt holster, with a long untucked shirt or jacket.

Some people wear sholder rigs, which also require a jacket worn all the time. There are holsterless "Belly Bands" like a big elastic band worn around your middle, with a place to hold the gun. I even have an undershirt which has a concealing compartment. And then there is the ankle holster and there is true "pocket carry".

All of these advantages and disadvantages which have to be weighed by each of us.

No, it's threatening, which is just as bad, but only if the cop really wants to nail you. It's a very dumb thing to do and I've never heard of it happening.

When I'm open carrying, the only time I come close to touching the gun is when adjusting my jacket to either tuck behind the gun or to feel the bottom of the holster to see if it's sticking out from under my jacket. I tend to unzip my jacket and partially cover up the holster when I walk into a business in riding gear. I've ridden past plenty of cops while open carrying. It's a non-issue here.

LOL. Right. I open carry solely to "posture and look tough/dangerous".

I open carry BECAUSE I CAN. If I'm working in the field, riding a horse or doing some type of outdoor activity (e.g. hiking/hunting) where concealed carry is impractical/uncomfortable, I open carry. If I go into town and will be in/out of public places (grocery store, bank, etc.), where a mugging/robbery is likely to take place, I'll go concealed.

I also open-carried at a rodeo a few weekends ago. There was an old-west shooting demo, so all the actors had six-guns on their hip. No-one raised an eyebrow, with exception of the limp-wristed, mamby-pamby, Birkenstock-wearing, soft-lipped, spineless & scared liberals...I guess I looked too "tough & dangerous" to them. SmileWavy
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This is an interesting subject... my parents live in Utah and I believe my dad could open carry there. FWIW, the only pistols he owns are target pistols in .22LR :p

So if I knew you well and met you on the street in AZ and expressed interest in your open carry weapon, would you be in trouble if you took it out of the holster to show it to me?

Assuming they're documented/genuine gang-bangers, they're not allowed to own or possess a weapon nor associate with anyone who does. Nonetheless, being in Berkeley, you can be assured that only the criminals will have guns on them, concealed or not.

Then there's the fanny pack. Man, they are cheesy. You might as well open carry, since everyone assumes every fanny pack holds a gun. I see them all the time. But what a PITA to have to draw from such a thing. I probably see someone open carrying in our grocery store about once a week and probably once a month in a fast food place. I've gotten some stares when stopping at Jack In the Box after a ride out in the desert. And open carried at Long John Silver last week during their dinner rush. No one said a word about it.

A shotgun is not considered a concealable weapon in most jurisdictions, so carry laws typically don't apply. That's why you see folks with shotguns in the back window of their pick-em-up trucks.

Funny you mention that. The only time I was ever asked about my sidearm while open caryring was by a guy from UT, who told me he had never seen such a thing. It was at a McDonald's in Camp Verde, AZ. Open carry in UT has some restrictions unless you also have a UT CCW, which I do. If you don't, the law says the gun must be two steps from firing, which means no round in the chamber if a semi-auto and no round in the cylinder fire position in a wheel gun. In UT you can carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol as long as you're not drinking. In Virginia you can OPEN carry in a place that serves alcohol, but not CCW. I wish they'd get all this stuff standardized.

I would never unholster a gun to show a stranger in public. I've done it before, but only with people I knew well. Jordi and I did this in a restaurant parking lot in Vegas once and it's probably a non-issue in gun store/range parking lots. But doing that for a stranger is insane. You could be disarming yourself or getting set up for something.

Absolutely, I'm just wondering if that counts as "brandishing" to the law regardless of circumstance. I agree it would not be a smart thing to do, I'm just wondering if it would be an illegal thing to do.

As for me, I'm ready to throw my iPhone at anyone threatening me... just try me, man! :D

No, it wouldn't be brandishing. I've done plenty of gun deals in parking lots. As long as it looks like it's not a confrontation, it's fine. I'd only do it in a parking lot though, not on the sidewalk in view of a lot of people. All gun stores have signs on the doors saying to keep your guns holstered at all times. The local BMW bike dealer is right between two gun stores and they even have the sign, as so many folks go in there on the way to/from the gun stores.

With open carry you lose tactical advantage. Bad guys know who's armed and if they're going to do something bad, someone with open carry will be the first target. The is countered by the argument that open carry will dissuade them in the first place. But that's the trade-off.

Depends where you are and how many people are around. I wouldn't open-carry in a bank while conducting business, but I do when working in the field, as I can see anyone walking/rolling up long before they see I have a gun on my hip. And, when they finally get to me, they stare at the gun while talking.

I've heard this so many times, but have never ever heard of someone who was open carrying being targeted in a robbery or other incident. It's pretty rare for cops to get mugged because most criminals aren't looking for a gunfight. Open carrying certainly takes the element of surprise out of it, but I don't believe at all that it makes someone a target. That's the last person I'd want to mess with if I made living robbing people.

just saying what my ccw instructor told me. Also was advised to do this by my spec ops friends when we're shooting out in the desert. Their rule is always have a loaded weapon concealed...that way if you've emptied your "range" weapon and lay it down you're still armed. But if you keep your situational awareness up it is unlikely that anyone would be able to pull that off.

simple analogy here...........

version I-in az i walk into bank carrying open, to make my legal deposit/withdrawl. bad guy comes in while im in line and says "ME ROBBO EL BANKO!" bad hoombre sees my open carried pistole and shoots me dead. end of carlos de magnifico el jeffe grande!

version II-i like this version better............carlos de magnifico el jeffe grande goes into bank to do his legal biz carrying concealed under happy happy joyful hawaiian shirt. bad hoombree comes in and yells " ME ROBBO EL BANKO!" carlos de magnifico el jeffe grande pulls concealed carry HK P9s .45 and empties mag on his worthless ass, reloads and empties that mag and blows smoke from barrel. all the lil blonde bimbettes come running up to carlos yelling "your are hero" , mayor of the town proclaims it "carlos de magnifico el jeffe grande day", i get the key to the city, a parade, the bank offers me a 1-MILL-ION DOLLAR a year job, with a company supplied patrickmotosports 917 w/3.8liter, and i ride off into the sunset with my soon to be wife. happy ever after with a notch on my P9S .45!

I like version 2.0 better as well but I've been in AZ. recently and seen some dumb-looking MFers walking around w/ cannons on their hip. Gave me the creepies big-time.

Nothing is going to be perfect for every situation. Some criminals looking for a quick score would avoid people open carrying, some tough guys with a chip on their shoulder would view it as an invitation to start something.

There is just so much wrong with this statement that one is left to wonder if you even thought it through.

Open carry (where legal) is a cop magnet like no other. Even honest, law abiding citizens better have all of their ducks in a row if they even want to try this. Gang-bangers attract enough attention as it is. Do you honestly think they are going to hang out with firearms on display?

Any armed robber looking for a target is going to keep looking if they see anyone openly armed. There are just too many easy targets out there to have to take any unnecessary risks. These people are, by definition, cowards. They are not looking for a gunfight. They are looking for the easiest possible target, with the lowest chance of getting caught or getting hurt.

Your statement represents, to me, a perfect example of one made by someone who has learned everything he knows about guns and crime from televison and/or the movies. A fantasy land where criminals are bold and fearless. The reality of the average street thug could not be more different.

Open carry is legal here in Washington. Any "gun guy", however, will strongly dicourage anyone from taking advantage of this. We have a provision in that law that stipulates no firearm be carried openly that in any way intimidates another. With the propensity for your average hand-wringing ninny to be intimidated by damn near anything at all, and their utter lack of exposure to guns (outside of their TV's or the big screen), this effectively rules out open carry in Washington. Unless you are in a rural area, well away from our decidedly liberal population centers.

yeah carrying open is a total drag on all points. hell the only time i do is on my property where i can legally and dont really give a damn what people think, or when im camping/hunting/fishing.

the only idiots that carry open are usually the "bubba" types. why risk pissing someone off where they call the cops and say "theres a man with a gun" ? hell what people dont know is wayyyyyyyyyyyy better.

another analogy...........mtn. lions do not attack the big bad ass mongo bull elk. mtn lions only go after the old/wounded/sick elk. and thats exactly how a criminal looks at his prey. they look for the easy score with the least problems and resistance. ie. the old/infirmed/women etc. and that is how a POS criminal mind works.

criminals sure as hell aint coming after rick lee or myself. A) we are both 6'3 easy B) 200# 's plus C) we look mean D) we have an attitude against POS scum E) we wear hawaiian shirts F) we wear sunglasses that are intimidating G) we both pack big ass .45's! NUFF SAID! LOL!

I use a Milt Sparks Versa Max II for IWB conceal carry. If I am out with my family, its on me.

I don't open carry, except in bear country, when fishing, but then again, I am miles away from everyone else. I would never do it in public.

The only open carry I have seen was the local right-wing talk moron, Jim Quinn. He hosts a program callled "War room" and spews all types of Limbaugh-nonsense. He also lives near me and used to wear a cowbiy hat and drive a Wrangler with huge American Flag decals on the sides--saw him coming into the local Home Depot open-carrying a 357 or 44 wheelgun in a wild-west style leg holster--which looked even more ridiculous because he was wearing shorts.

Shorts? No fing way.

You're a riot!

Version II is of course the adolescent fantasy that sustains the gun lobbyists, and which turns otherwise rational human beings into blithering idiots. I accept this sad state of affairs for what it is.

I'd love to hear from one of you gun-toting righteous citizens who have actually foiled a dastardly crime by being in the right place at the right time with your concealed cannon.

This must happen all the time according to the frequency with which this scenario is offered as an argument in support of the right to carry.

Let's hear some examples from the real world.

The problem is, they would standardize on the Illinois standard

Here's one just happened last week:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/community/news/hollywood/sfl-flbshooter0330sbmar30,0,7522093.story

Two more recent stories in the same paper: Illegal alien bum-rushes off-duty cop as he opens the front door to his house. Pow, dead.

Music teacher caps/kills armed dirtbag breaking in to house through sliding glass door.

There are a thousand more just like it. Search Google news or go to the NRA website.

Unfortunately, you'll easily find more stories about un-armed "sheeple" being shot/murdered/robbed by armed criminals as that makes for better headlines in/on the news.

I see my gun just as I view an insurance policy...Hope I never need it, but there if I do.

Here are the archives kept by the NRA of their The Armed Citizen column, which appears monthly in their publications. This archive goes back to 1958, and includes several stories every month. These stories are gleaned from news sources, not made up by the NRA.

http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/default.aspx

I wouldn't try to foil a crime. I'd only protect myself and my wife. Other unarmed sheeple are on their own. And I'd call it the wrong place at the wrong time.

Pa is concealed carry only, but i don't think i'd open carry anyway. I don't want anyone knowing i have a gun.

3 times for me so far.

Once i caught a fleeing scumbag on foot(illegal, no license or insurance) after he hit and ran a lady and her kid in their car. He hit her so hard his inertia switch triggered and his car stalled, so he was forced to try and run on foot. This was a major accident and serious injuries were involved.
I was just a little faster. Mr. 9mm convinced him to follow me back to the accident scene with no fuss or muss. Last i saw him he was wearing shiny silver bracelets and going for a ride in the pretty car with the flashing blue and red lights. :)

I just recently caught a different hit and run guy that tried to flee when he hit the car in front of mine and my partner's saab. I didn't require a pistol for that one, though my partner did end up pepper spraying the COMPLETELY HAMMERED DRUNK guy.

Another time i caught 3 young guys trying to break into the bar under my apartmet. My white german shepard and mr. 12 gauge pump convinced them to stop that chit right away.

Finally, i was in my car and the guy behind me was in full road rage mode for some perceived offense. At was at the tail end of rush hour, maybe 7:00pm.

After he followed me trying to cut me off and panic brake in front of me several times i just pulled onto a commercial street(no witnesses or innocents) and stopped my car.
Sure enough, he pulled up right behind me and tapped my bumper, and gets out all in a rage.

I had my 9mm in my lap. When he ran up and stuck his face in my window screaming i gave him the butt end of the grip as hard as i could to the nose.
He went sleepy time after that. I just re-holstered my pistol and drove off, leaving him in the middle of the street.

Douche bag, bet he never does that again.

California allows open carry, as long as the gun isn't loaded. So I just carry a 24 oz. framing hammer in my holster. Much more effective.

Yeah, but instead of the hammer loaded is the guy swinging it?

We live in dangerous times...

The reality is I have no interest in stopping crime - that isn't my job, nor am I covered under the law to do so. "Good samaritan" laws are pretty thin most of the time. The only reason to pull a weapon is if you think you or your family is in imminent danger and has no other alternative. Anything short of that will likely get you jail time, and rightly so imho.