Concealed vs. Open Carry

[TheMentat]

Being from up north, I am a little bit uninitiated to this whole CCW thing you have in the states. It seems to me that a lot of states (most?) permit some sort of concealed carry, but far fewer permit open carry.

What is the reasoning for that?

[legion]

Illinois is one of two states that permits neither.

There are two good reasons why concealed carry is more prevalent:

1) Criminals don't know who is armed and who is unarmed. They have to be much more cautious. They may be in a situation where no one is armed, but they don't know that for sure.

2) Many average citizens are uncomfortable around guns.

[slakjaw]

Good question. I think the reasoning is that open carry would scare people??

I think open carry is actually by county here. The county I moved from in Nebraska had no law against open carry, it was perfectly legal. No one did it because there was no need.

Personally I think both should be allowed.

[jyl]

The theory, I think, is that openly carrying a firearm is intimidating to others and/or appeals to people who want to posture and look tough/dangerous. Maybe a fuzzy line between carrying openly and "brandishing" - how do you interpret someone touching the butt of his gun, gesturing toward it, pointedly turning to expose the gun, etc?

In theory, a concealed firearm cannot be used to intimidate or posture, since the license requires that no-one know you are armed.

I haven't thought real hard about whether this theory is valid, but I tend to agree with it. When my wife and kids are out and about, I don't really want them surrounded by gang-bangers displaying their weapons. Also, I don't see how a law-abiding person benefits by carrying openly. Besides ensuring that you're the first one to be shot in an armed robbery.

[Rick Lee]

Actually, plenty of states allow open carry too.....on the books, but not really in practice. Virginia allows it, but you can be assured of a police encounter if you walk into a 7-11 carrying openly. You won't get arrested or cited, but you'll get a talking to. I always took VA's open carry to mean I didn't have to try too hard to keep it concealed. If I was printing or bent down to pick something up and the holster in the small of my back showed, I was not in legal trouble. In states with no open carry law, that could get me into serious hot water.

In Arizona open carry is legal and a pretty common sight. I do it regularly on my bike, as wearing full riding gear makes it difficult to draw from concealment. I also like offending drivers with California plates when I pass them and let them see my right hip. When my wife and I take a walk through the park or to the store at night after dinner, I usually carry openly too. It's a very common sight around here at night and it lets potential trouble makers know you're not going to be their easiest victim..... and let's them know before they even approach you. If they assume you're unarmed, it tends to encourage the idiots and I'd rather avoid such encounters altogether. When I'm in a public place with a lot of people like a shopping mall or Wal-Mart, I keep it concealed.

[Rot 911]

Nice thing about concealed is you can use your own discretion as to what places you want to carry into and no one knows you are carrying.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by jyl

Maybe a fuzzy line between carrying openly and "brandishing" - how do you interpret someone touching the butt of his gun, gesturing toward it, pointedly turning to expose the gun, etc?

It's not a fuzzy line at all per AZ law. Brandishing starts with unholstering. If it's holstered, especially in a rentention or thumbreak holster, there's no mistaking it at all. If you get into a traffic or parking lot dispute, lift your shirt and rest the heel of your hand on the gun while walking up to someone, then you could be charged with threatening. but even that's unlikely. First quesiton a cop asks when they get a call about such a thing is, "Did he touch the gun or display it in a threatening manner?" I've never heard of anyone doing that. Everyone who carries knows they'll get hammered if they mess up with the gun and I certainly take that stuff seriously. My gun will only ever come out of the holster when there is a clear threat to life or limb, nothing less.

[jyl]

So if you place your hand on the grip of a still-holstered gun, does that qualify as brandishing under AZ law?

[HardDrive]

Business owners can openly carry, and that makes sense for some cash heavy businesses like pawn shops, and check cashing places. Not so sure I like the idea of folks openly carrying. Do we want 18 year old guys with glocks on their hips roaming the street? If they can carry a pistol, why not a shotgun? Nope, don't like where that ones going....

[red-beard]

Rick touched on some of the reason for Open Carry.

Open carry is easier, especially in the summer time

Open carry allows quicker access to the firearm.

Concealled carry is not supposed to be SO concealed that no one will ever know. It is basic covering of the firearm, so that in general, people will no know. I spotted a Sky Marshal, who was carrying concealed, because of the way he was dressed. Most people wouldn't suspect him. But I know, from carrying, how to do the basic concealment.

Most people use some sort of IWB, Inside the Waist Band, holster, which clips to your clothing, and lets you put the gun in the holster. The butt usually above the waist band, requiring you to keep your shirt untucked. This is how I knew the sky Marshal was carrying.

Some of the newer holsters use clips which allow the shirt to be tucked-in, inside of a slot between the hoster and the clip. The belt covers the clips and the shirt is left a little bit out to cover the top of the clip.

I also use an OWB, Outside the Waist Band holster, aka a standard belt holster, with a long untucked shirt or jacket.

Some people wear sholder rigs, which also require a jacket worn all the time. There are holsterless "Belly Bands" like a big elastic band worn around your middle, with a place to hold the gun. I even have an undershirt which has a concealing compartment. And then there is the ankle holster and there is true "pocket carry".

All of these advantages and disadvantages which have to be weighed by each of us.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by jyl

So if you place your hand on the grip of a still-holstered gun, does that qualify as brandishing under AZ law?

No, it's threatening, which is just as bad, but only if the cop really wants to nail you. It's a very dumb thing to do and I've never heard of it happening.

When I'm open carrying, the only time I come close to touching the gun is when adjusting my jacket to either tuck behind the gun or to feel the bottom of the holster to see if it's sticking out from under my jacket. I tend to unzip my jacket and partially cover up the holster when I walk into a business in riding gear. I've ridden past plenty of cops while open carrying. It's a non-issue here.

[DasBoot]

Originally Posted by jyl

The theory, I think, is that openly carrying a firearm is intimidating to others and/or appeals to people who want to posture and look tough/dangerous.

LOL. Right. I open carry solely to "posture and look tough/dangerous".

I open carry BECAUSE I CAN. If I'm working in the field, riding a horse or doing some type of outdoor activity (e.g. hiking/hunting) where concealed carry is impractical/uncomfortable, I open carry. If I go into town and will be in/out of public places (grocery store, bank, etc.), where a mugging/robbery is likely to take place, I'll go concealed.

I also open-carried at a rodeo a few weekends ago. There was an old-west shooting demo, so all the actors had six-guns on their hip. No-one raised an eyebrow, with exception of the limp-wristed, mamby-pamby, Birkenstock-wearing, soft-lipped, spineless & scared liberals...I guess I looked too "tough & dangerous" to them.

[Tishabet]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

It's not a fuzzy line at all per AZ law. Brandishing starts with unholstering. If it's holstered, especially in a rentention or thumbreak holster, there's no mistaking it at all. If you get into a traffic or parking lot dispute, lift your shirt and rest the heel of your hand on the gun while walking up to someone, then you could be charged with threatening. but even that's unlikely. First quesiton a cop asks when they get a call about such a thing is, "Did he touch the gun or display it in a threatening manner?" I've never heard of anyone doing that. Everyone who carries knows they'll get hammered if they mess up with the gun and I certainly take that stuff seriously. My gun will only ever come out of the holster when there is a clear threat to life or limb, nothing less.

This is an interesting subject... my parents live in Utah and I believe my dad could open carry there. FWIW, the only pistols he owns are target pistols in .22LR

So if I knew you well and met you on the street in AZ and expressed interest in your open carry weapon, would you be in trouble if you took it out of the holster to show it to me?

[DasBoot]

Originally Posted by jyl

I haven't thought real hard about whether this theory is valid, but I tend to agree with it. When my wife and kids are out and about, I don't really want them surrounded by gang-bangers displaying their weapons.

Assuming they're documented/genuine gang-bangers, they're not allowed to own or possess a weapon nor associate with anyone who does. Nonetheless, being in Berkeley, you can be assured that only the criminals will have guns on them, concealed or not.

[Rick Lee]

Then there's the fanny pack. Man, they are cheesy. You might as well open carry, since everyone assumes every fanny pack holds a gun. I see them all the time. But what a PITA to have to draw from such a thing. I probably see someone open carrying in our grocery store about once a week and probably once a month in a fast food place. I've gotten some stares when stopping at Jack In the Box after a ride out in the desert. And open carried at Long John Silver last week during their dinner rush. No one said a word about it.

[DasBoot]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

If they can carry a pistol, why not a shotgun?

A shotgun is not considered a concealable weapon in most jurisdictions, so carry laws typically don't apply. That's why you see folks with shotguns in the back window of their pick-em-up trucks.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Tishabet

This is an interesting subject... my parents live in Utah and I believe my dad could open carry there. FWIW, the only pistols he owns are target pistols in .22LR

So if I knew you well and met you on the street in AZ and expressed interest in your open carry weapon, would you be in trouble if you took it out of the holster to show it to me?

Funny you mention that. The only time I was ever asked about my sidearm while open caryring was by a guy from UT, who told me he had never seen such a thing. It was at a McDonald's in Camp Verde, AZ. Open carry in UT has some restrictions unless you also have a UT CCW, which I do. If you don't, the law says the gun must be two steps from firing, which means no round in the chamber if a semi-auto and no round in the cylinder fire position in a wheel gun. In UT you can carry in a restaurant that serves alcohol as long as you're not drinking. In Virginia you can OPEN carry in a place that serves alcohol, but not CCW. I wish they'd get all this stuff standardized.

I would never unholster a gun to show a stranger in public. I've done it before, but only with people I knew well. Jordi and I did this in a restaurant parking lot in Vegas once and it's probably a non-issue in gun store/range parking lots. But doing that for a stranger is insane. You could be disarming yourself or getting set up for something.

[Tishabet]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I would never unholster a gun to show a stranger in public. I've done it before, but only with people I knew well. Jordi and I did this in a restaurant parking lot in Vegas once and it's probably a non-issue in gun store/range parking lots. But doing that for a stranger is insane. You could be disarming yourself or getting set up for something.

Absolutely, I'm just wondering if that counts as "brandishing" to the law regardless of circumstance. I agree it would not be a smart thing to do, I'm just wondering if it would be an illegal thing to do.

As for me, I'm ready to throw my iPhone at anyone threatening me... just try me, man!

[Rick Lee]

No, it wouldn't be brandishing. I've done plenty of gun deals in parking lots. As long as it looks like it's not a confrontation, it's fine. I'd only do it in a parking lot though, not on the sidewalk in view of a lot of people. All gun stores have signs on the doors saying to keep your guns holstered at all times. The local BMW bike dealer is right between two gun stores and they even have the sign, as so many folks go in there on the way to/from the gun stores.

[nostatic]

With open carry you lose tactical advantage. Bad guys know who's armed and if they're going to do something bad, someone with open carry will be the first target. The is countered by the argument that open carry will dissuade them in the first place. But that's the trade-off.