Selling American cars on MPG.....missing the point?

[onewhippedpuppy]

Anyone notice that this is damn near the sole focus of the automaker bailout mess? Every senator blathering on about American cars not getting good enough MPG. Every American commercial bragging about having the highest MPG in it's class. The company bailout plans that are centered around new plug-in hybrid vehicles for 2010. Etc, etc, etc.

So is it just me, or are they all missing the point? American cars CAN get good MPG. Pretty much any Cobalt, Focus, etc will get mid-30s MPG same as the imports. But the cars are crap. So by putting the focus on MPG, are they still going to be building cars (post bailout) that nobody will buy?

My expectation is that a few years and billions later, we'll still have senators scratching their heads wondering why the new 35 MPG GM whatever had class-leading MPG but still didn't sell. It seems that nobody realizes (or will acknowledge) that quality and reliability killed off the American auto industry.

[Noah930]

I've noticed the same thing. Detroit's in the mess it is, now, because of greed. But to have the reins now taken over by Congress/government (and their incompetence) is going to be a mess, too. Note that neither group is run by reasonable car guys--that's who we need running these car companies, right now. Neither of those two groups (previous CEOs or our government) "gets it" when it comes to the reasons for the failure of the American car industry.

[Rick Lee]

Rest assured, if the gov't. gets Detroit to build much more fuel efficient cars and folks still won't buy them, there will be a huge increase in the gas tax, if oil prices don't make gas more expensive on their own.

[Noah930]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Rest assured, if the gov't. gets Detroit to build much more fuel efficient cars and folks still won't buy them, there will be a huge increase in the gas tax, if oil prices don't make gas more expensive on their own.

We already have a bit of that going on. Various geniuses in our government want to start taxing cars on mileage, rather than how we've traditionally done it, through gas taxes. So as cars have gotten more fuel efficient (and my gosh, what happens when positively everyone's got an electric car?), we won't have enough money to pay for fixing roads. So let's tax cars on mileage, not the gas they consume. Though doesn't that decrease a/the primary motivation most people have for getting out of their gas guzzlers and into more fuel efficient vehicles? What are we really trying to accomplish, here? Oh, that's right, to maintain and increase government revenue.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Cobalt, Focus..........are crap.

I'll give you the Neon, but I want to see the data which says Jap cars in the same class are better than the Cobalt and Focus. No data/survey over seven years old allowed.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by kach22i

I'll give you the Neon, but I want to see the data which says Jap cars in the same class are better than the Cobalt and Focus. No data/survey over seven years old allowed.

Go look at a Cobalt, Focus, and Mazda3. That's all the research you need to do. When you're done you'll feel embarassed for Chevy and Ford.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Go look at a Cobalt, Focus, and Mazda3. That's all the research you need to do. When you're done you'll feel embarassed for Chevy and Ford.

I like the Mazda 3 and most other small cars.

What are my eyes going to tell me that a good survey will not?

My 1985 VW Diesel Golf had a great interior and looked nice when new. I can say for a fact that I expected more (better reliability/quality) based on the looks alone.

[The Gaijin]

This mindset was born of $4-something a gallon gas last year. Not a bad thing.

The fact is GM, Ford and Chrysler/Jeep had their "bailout" - it was known as the SUV era. Easy money and easy profit like that will never be seen again.

See it as a missed opportunity. We are not going back to those days. (Somebody send a memo to shareholders, management and workers.)

[onewhippedpuppy]

Because there's about 20,000 ways you can poke holes in those surveys. Plus, I'm talking more about build quality. The Mazda3 and new Mazda6 interior reminds me of an Audi. The Focus interior reminds me of a Toyota circa 1992. The same go for most of the domestic products, especially the lower priced ones. Cheap fabric, hard and cheap looking plastic, visible mold lines, poor fit and finish, overall they're very lacking.

Hyundai can build a cheap car with a high quality interior, why can't Ford or Chevy?

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Go look at a Cobalt, Focus, and Mazda3. That's all the research you need to do. When you're done you'll feel embarassed for Chevy and Ford.

Actually, if GM hadn't put such a cheap interior in the Cobalt, it would be a pretty good small car...but they cheapened it from it's Euro car base...

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

Actually, if GM hadn't put such a cheap interior in the Cobalt, it would be a pretty good small car...but they cheapened it from it's Euro car base...

Yup. C&D called the Cobalt SS the funnest car for under $20k. They also commented that it was drug down by the low-rent Cobalt interior.

[TechnoViking]

Let's not forget style and design. You can make a neon get 40 MPG and give it a 10 year warranty. It's still a neon.

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Yup. C&D called the Cobalt SS the funnest car for under $20k. They also commented that it was drug down by the low-rent Cobalt interior.

So, buy one, then take it to one of the "pimp my ride" types for an interior re-do?
Guess that would kind of defeat the purpose...

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

So, buy one, then take it to one of the "pimp my ride" types for an interior re-do?
Guess that would kind of defeat the purpose...

Especially when a Mazdaspeed3 is only $3k more.

[dd74]

Car and Driver (or maybe Motor Trend) rated the Cobalt SS as capable a track day car as the Lotus Elise.

That, to me, does not define "crap."

[nostatic]

No style, no aesthetic for most US cars. It is McDonalds and Walmart on 4-wheels. Bland, low quality, and without passion.

[jyl]

Just because a Congressman is talking about the MPG issue doesn't mean that the car company's management isn't aware of the quality issue. They definitely are.

And some of those "car guys" had their heads in the sand. Bob Lutz is an example - I think he spent the last decade of his career badly out of touch with the future direction of the auto industry and the consumer. if he hadn't been so vocal about hybrids not making sense, global warming being a crock of *****, the rebirth of retro muscle cars, etc, maybe GM would have a Volt to sell today and for less than $40K too. Maybe they'd have more unit-body compact SUVs, more and better compact cars.

I do think Detroit has a MPG problem. Their MPG problem isn't so much on a head-to-head comparison of equivalent models, but in the model mix, especially at the two ends of the spectrum.

At one end, Detroit is far too reliant on large SUVs and pickup trucks, and lag in small SUV/SAV/minivan built on car platforms. I'm not saying we shouldn't have full-size pickup trucks, but if you agree that oil prices will trend higher over the next 10 years and you don't expect another housing boom anytime soon, then its not a good thing to depend on the 1/2 ton P/U for your profits.

At the other end, Detroit is way behind in the highest-MPG platforms. Toyota and Honda have affordable and effective hybrid cars now, the Europeans have high-MPG diesel technology, and Detroit's hybrid cars are still concepts or will be egregiously overpriced (GM Volt). I'm not counting Detroit's lipstick-on-a-pig "hybrid SUVs" like the Tahoe Hybrid which can't even beat the non-hybrid Toyota Highlander in rated MPG.

I agree Detroit also has a quality/reliability problem. Ford has made the most progress here, current Fords are roughly equivalent to or even better than most European makes, even if they still have a gap to the Japanese. GM and Chrysler have not made as much progress. But even for Ford, it will take many years for good quality to show up in resale values - a bad reputation is hard to erase. And even Ford still needs to catch up in perceived quality - how are the interior materials, how nice is the trim, etc.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Especially when a Mazdaspeed3 is only $3k more.

The Cobalt SS is said to be faster than the MazdaSpeed, and out handles it as well.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by nostatic

No style, no aesthetic for most US cars. It is McDonalds and Walmart on 4-wheels. Bland, low quality, and without passion.

That is for "most cars." What was it that you had, a VW GTi or Audi A3? Hell, I can barely tell those two vehicles apart. They're one in the same to me.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by dd74

Car and Driver (or maybe Motor Trend) rated the Cobalt SS as capable a track day car as the Lotus Elise.

That, to me, does not define "crap."

No, BUT you also have to tolerate a low quality interior. That gets old on a daily basis. Plus, what do you suppose is the ratio of non-SS to SS Cobalts sold? 50 - 1 or so? The average buyer could care less how the car performs on the track, but they sure as hell notice cheap materials, poor assembly, and rattles.

John, nice assessment. Though in regards to the trucks, you can't ignore that full-size trucks are STILL very profitable, even with higher fuel prices. How about investing in increasing MPG on those trucks? Can you imagine how well a 25-30 MPG diesel 1/2 ton truck would sell?