Radiant Flooring - Between Joists type

[RWebb]

I need some education on this topic.

I'm interested in installing the between the joists type of radiant flooring for the main floor of my house. The area would be roughly 1,000 ft2.

I have a daylight basement that is used mostly for sleeping (and storing wine). Some of the lower floor has sheet rock ceiling, most has acoustic tile (which I'd like to get rid of anyway) and some is bare with open joists.

Most of the main floor is 3/4" thick Hickory strips. Below that is (I think) 3/4" plywood subfloor. Dunno if there is resin papaer or tar paper in the slip joint. The kitchen has Marmoleum.

Radiantec says "go for it" and would like to sell me about $3,000 worth of stuff for DIY. I can hire my gf's kid for $9/hr to rip out the ceilings. Beyond that, I can have 2 guys working for $40/hr. One guy is pretty good and his helper is alright, I guess. They are best at sheetrock & drywall, but do other construction projects. I'd also have to hire a plumber & an electrician. But they'd better know how to do this stuff, 'cuz I don't. i.e. I cannot tell them how to hook up the manifold, pump, actuators, valves, etc.

The other option is to hire a contractor for the whole whizbang - I've had 2 in here to measure & look t things and hope they will give me a proposal & estimate in a couple of weeks. BUT, I have no idea how good either of them is -- and this city is notorious for contractors of very low skill who charge very high prices...

At minimum, I'd like to be able to keep some watch over what is going on, even if I hire a contractor for the whole whizbang.

[herr_oberst]

sub'd

[911Rob]

Obviously you've both seen this previous thread: LINK

[Evans, Marv]

Radiantec should have installers they can recommend, and they should be of decent quality.

[Jim Richards]

Originally Posted by 911Rob

Obviously you've both seen this previous thread: LINK

Perhaps he's just having a senior moment.

Just make sure most of your radiant heat goes up into the floor, and not into the basement.

[berettafan]

but for the wine storage my suggestion would be to look into conditioning the basement.

our home is only 1 story but the crawlspace is 'conditioned' w/ no insulation between it and the house. never have cold wood or tile floors. ever.

[RWebb]

ok, I have obviously seen the other thread which took off into elec. heat and concrete embedded heat - which is no help to me. I attempted to restart a useful thread, Jim, so if you have nothing to contribute, please don't post.

my basement/lower floor already has portions w/o any insulation or ceiling below the main floor - and those areas of the main floor are cold.


can anyone relate whether Radiantec has good components to offer?
- I have seen some posts elsewhere re not getting good advice from them.

I am also confused about when one used Al plates to hold the PEX tubes and when it is more appropriate to use clips. One contractor mentioned he would use clips in some zones and plates in others to "balance" the heat...

[onewhippedpuppy]

2 yahoos + plumber + electrician will probably cost more than just hiring an experienced pro to install. Do you really want to pay dumb and dumber to learn how to install radiant flooring? Better yet, do you want to pay to potentially fix their mistakes? I would ask around for some recommendations and get quotes from quality companies. Just like there's no such thing as a "cheap Porsche", the same typically goes for contractors.

Though paying your gf's kid $9/hr to tear out the ceiling seems like a no-brainer.

[Jim Richards]

Originally Posted by RWebb

ok, I have obviously seen the other thread which took off into elec. heat and concrete embedded heat - which is no help to me. I attempted to restart a useful thread, Jim, so if you have nothing to contribute, please don't post...

Ouch! I was just giving you a virtual poke in the ribs.

My second comment regarding the direction heat is going still stands. How are you planning on addressing that? Or are you beyond that point? It wasn't obvious in this or your earlier thread.

[Jim Richards]

I think the manifold is not such a big deal. A good plumber should be able to handle that. The Radiantec contractor should be better at putting it all together compared to DiY + hiring tradespeople (plumbers, etc.). No learning curve to pay for. On the other hand, they might not be cheaper since you'll pay for everything. The clips vs. AL plates is not not clear to me. How do they "balance the heat?" AL plates will conduct the heat into your basement, even though they tightly hold the piping up to your subfloor. The connectors are probably OK, but I'd watch for them loosening up over time with many heat cycles. I have not idea if they are any better than other vendors.

[RWebb]

whipped - my goal is for me to learn enuff to lay the PEX tubing in - test it (pressure test??) and

- I appreciate that a competent professional can do good work, BUT in THIS town I have found thru bitter, bitter experience that it is nearly impossible to ensure you have found one. Many many others have had the same experience - no idea why this town is so bad for getting decent contractors.

Jim - sorry if I was short - have had a LOT of gf drama recently... anyway, the degree of insulation is a question for me.

One scenario has Al plates with longitudinal areas to hold the PEX tubes, next layer down is batt insualtion, & I think the Radiantec stuff includes a foil radiant reflective layer; last layer will be sheetrock.

Other scenario has "clips" 2 inches below floor to hold the PEX tubes, next layer down is pink Foam Board insulation, then batt insualtion; again the last layer will be sheetrock.

At least that is how one contractor explained it to me. He had some odd ways of explaining things, so who knows...

[herr_oberst]

Originally Posted by RWebb

I have found thru bitter, bitter experience that it is nearly impossible to ensure you have found one. Many many others have had the same experience - no idea why this town is so bad for getting decent contractors.

Getting your Construction Contractor license/bond in this state is easier than getting a manicurist license. Or Day Care.

But I will really be interested in seeing what you finally end up with, and even more important, how it works out for you, because I have a '73 ranch with a crawlspace that would be a perfect candidate, in my opinion, for radiant.

[Taz's Master]

The Pex tubing is in my opinion great stuff. #1 it is both tough and flexible. #2 it can be a little awkward, but once you get the hang of it, it is pretty easy to work with.

You can certainly hang and pressure test it. I worked with it in cement (on the ground) so going over your head will surely increase the degree of difficulty, I can see having another set of hands being a real asset. Plan out your loops and try to keep them roughly the same length. Pressure testing is easy.

Talk to more than one plumber, discuss what he expects the system to do and how it will work, and go with the guy who seems to have experience and has an understanding of why he's reccomending what he is doing. There are pros and cons to everything involved, from the method of insulating, more or fewer zones, the controls, and so on. They guy who understands that there isn't one right way that applies to every scenario, and can explain why he thinks his compromises are the way to go would be the one I'd hire.

I would be far more concerned with a system that works the way you want it to than with leaks. Leaks can be repaired in a pretty straightforward manner, troubleshooting a poorly designed system that isn't operating the way you want it to can be a nightmare.

Edit: I'm sure you've already been there, but check www.pexsupply.com the radiant install parts should give you an idea what the contractor is talking abour: plates vs. clips. You might want to check into whether a joist heating application is appropriate (I am unfamiliar with this stuff) for your circumstance so you have an idea of whether or not your contractor is suggesting the proper system.

[RWebb]

thx

re the crawlspace - they are hard to work in -- some here will not do crawlspaces, only walk in basements

[djmcmath]

Resurrecting this thread. RWebb, any updates?

My wife has announced that the radiant heat system that we have (the old style, with big old honking radiators under all the windows) has got to go. I personally feel that the old fashioned radiators are classy and cool looking -- and would be especially so if cleaned up, maybe even partially polished -- but I have been over-ruled.

So now I'm watching your adventures in back-fitting radiant in-floor heating with great interest, as I may end up following in your footsteps.

Thanks,
Dan

[RWebb]

not much - a local co. quoted me a $22k price - it includes tearout but not putting back drywall. I figure I can at least do - or hire labor that is cheaper than $55/hr to do - the demo.

This co. proposed using Joist-trak to phold the PEX tubing up and spread out the heat. Radiantec has their own items, and those look beefier to me (hence they will spread the heat better and less heat will go downwards). I need to determine the price differential & then ask myself if it is worth it...

Have not heard from the other co. that I had in to prepare a bid yet.

Dan - just leave the radiators there if it is a period house. Worth money some day -- If she objects, cite the cost of removal; that they are worth money and preserve the house; and then build some pretty wooden cabinets/enclosures to hide them.