I'm not getting along with the 30 somethings.

[Jim Richards]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Pretty broad brush JR. I'm 29 and don't meet any of your stereotypes, well, except for the (automotive) ADD thing.

Fixed it for you, Matt.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by Jim Richards

Fixed it for you, Matt.

You know, I wasn't going to mention that, although I have followed his other threads...

I'm not one to talk... I have a buttload of cars and bikes. Thinning the herd soon...

JR

[Jim Richards]

Originally Posted by einreb

snip

features... local to me, saw van proudly displaying company info in hood, simple website, not pushy.

No one would confuse me with a 30-something, but I look for these same things pointed out by einreb.

I spend a lot of my day in meetings (cell phones off or ringers silenced). Internet searches and email exchanges when I'm back at my desk are preferred to playing phone tag.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by berettafan

Who is the customer here?

Respect and humility and particularly patience are exactly what is lacking in many contractors. Any homeowner who doesn't like your proposal is automatically a selfish, disrespectful punk who has no appreciation for the old ways. I guess that just because a contractor may be a grizzled old man who has been slogging away for 30+ yrs we should all bow down and pay whatever he asks and never even think to price shop lest he be offended. And God forbid anyone should ask for a time & materials quote.

Why do you need a timie and material quote? A simple break down of the different trades should be more then enough. Are you willing to pay for it? I still hope its ok to make 20 % on top of labor and materials. Do you ask for a Tand M breaking down at a mid to high end restaurant? Its not all homeowners that are like that. It is the young punks, that have an ok job and they let the money get to their head and it is not that much money. Just because they are paying you they think they can treat a tradesman like crap. I always tell people, We are not expensive, its just you can't affort to pay for the better thing in life.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I can't stand the music either. What does that say about me?

you re an old fart like me. I am 42 going on 68. 20 years of dealing with all kind of good and bad people who want to screw you out of hundreds of thousands of dollars will make you a little uneasy when that particular group of people come along. your guards are up. Until they get burn by fire, they will never know what it feels like. tell you this, I really don't like to hire younger sub contractors either ( late 20 early 30). I like the 40-50 crowd. they are a little more reailable, experience and don't always take things personal. The young guys I found that if they need to leave, they pick up and go. Under bid for example or come back for corrections.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

And you wonder why you have no work. Your attitude sucks, and you don't even try to hide it.


The problem AINT the 30 somethings....it's Milt.

No man, its not Milt. He just spend time with these 2 guy, who's going to pay for his time. He might even try to educate them on how to go about doing it. then they may go and get someone else to weld it up for them using Milts suggestions. I am so freaking tire of tire kickers. I haven't had to deal with them for a long time now. I just tell them to go get @$^&? in a polite way if I don't think they are too serious or lack funding. they think you have give them something ( info and design) for nothing. Until you are in our shoe, you will never know. everytime you talk or try and sell someone, it cost you money out of pocket.

[m21sniper]

A customer doesn't want to be educated, he wants his job done with as little muss and fuss as possible, for a reasonable price.

Generally the customer is going to look down on the tradesman, the last thing he wants is to feel inferior to someone he is hiring to do what he probably considers "menial labor". It's pretty basic psychology.

I've done a good deal of outside sales work myself in the past. IME, trying to 'educate' people is a real no go.

[jeffgrant]

A customer almost never WANTS to be educated, but they SHOULD be educated.

The trick is to give them the education in such a manner as they don't realize they're being taught.

90% of all "sales pitches" are exactly that.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

A customer doesn't want to be educated, he wants his job done with as little muss and fuss as possible, for a reasonable price.

Generally the customer is going to look down on the tradesman, the last thing he wants is to feel inferior to someone he is hiring to do what he probably considers "menial labor". It's pretty basic psychology.

I've done a good deal of outside sales work myself in the past. IME, trying to 'educate' people is a real no go.

Actually, you're right on this. Being somewhat accomplished at what I do and having a decent education, command of the language and a high IQ, I'm sure I come off as somewhat condescending. The typical homeowner is condescending to the trades. Bad mix.

Hey, I've had a good run. I've sold well over 2 million dollars worth of windows and doors installing every one myself. I'd say that my sales methods were good enough over the years. Before windows I did general contracting and before that, painting. All in all, I've been working for Mr. and Mrs. Homeowner for a lot of years. They have changed more than I.

As I said, you guys have nailed it. The younger homeowners are by and large not up to speed. When I see some jerkoff selling a job that he does not intend to do right for whatever reason, AND HE SELLS THAT JOB, I think well, they deserve what they get.

I thank you all again for telling me what I needed to hear. It makes me feel a bit better as I get ready to pack up the tools and move on. Oh, I'll still hang a door now and then just to keep fresh. And just to prove that there is someone who knows how to do that with a perfect margin on the sides and top. It's a lost art and no one cares that it got lost.

[m21sniper]

Hey nothing i said is personal milt, your own comments made it clear you're not in the mood to "play the game" anymore. Sales is all about playing the game.

When a man comes to the realization that he doesn't want to deal with the BS anymore, as you have, as you said yourself, it's time to move onto something else.

More power to you man, i hope you find something you like better.

[Brillo]

Originally Posted by milt

It's a lost art and no one cares that it got lost.

I care. Although I am a few years past the 30's.

I found a family owned window and door place a dozen years ago. The guy that does their installations for the windows is fantastic and cares about what he does and he is a clean worker and cleans up after himself.

While there are those of us that care, it is difficult to find workers such as yourself that care and take pride in what they do. I think your statement may be a bit premature, but unless there is a change in direction soon, I feel by the next couple of generations it will be correct. No one will care, builds and products will be cheap and not last. We have a good start on that already. To me it is sad, but to those that don't know or care about quality I guess it doesn't matter.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by look 171

Why do you need a timie and material quote? A simple break down of the different trades should be more then enough. Are you willing to pay for it? I still hope its ok to make 20 % on top of labor and materials. Do you ask for a Tand M breaking down at a mid to high end restaurant? Its not all homeowners that are like that. It is the young punks, that have an ok job and they let the money get to their head and it is not that much money. Just because they are paying you they think they can treat a tradesman like crap. I always tell people, We are not expensive, its just you can't affort to pay for the better thing in life.

If you talked to me like that wrt a job i was looking to have done i'd slam the door in your face and go order a pizza.

There are plenty of fellas doing the same job as you that can do it without the attitude, and do it with a smile. I'd even pay them more to do it.

If i wanted to deal with an acidic personality i'd just get married.

Seriously, "tire kickers" as you put it are just another term for "educated consumers."

You want idiots for customers, like all salesmen do. I don't blame you, but some people actually use their brain before they make big purchases, and those people will want some explanation for why a job you quote costs what it costs.

[Zeke]

I think both or you are wrong (Sniper and look). Relax.

Here's one that gets me and it's a lot older than I am. This happened a lot when I was painting.

"How many gallons will it take?"

How long will it take?"

(wheels in head turning)

OMG, revelation. They just figured out how much I want to make an hour. But, they never consider any of the costs of doing business.

The more I think about this, the more I say fvk people. I was supposed to go into the family's advertising business but I didn't because I thought it was BS. I really should have been a lawyer, but that's immoral to me.

Leave it to me to pick a life long career that is always an upstream struggle. I did sell cars for 2 months. That point is that I have been identified as the "contractor" and the "used car salesman." Why would anyone take these jobs given the preconceived notions?

Don't ask me, that's one area where I am really ignorant. I'll now look for work that is really popular. Maybe I'll open an ice cream store.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Seriously, "tire kickers" as you put it are just another term for "educated consumers."

You have got to be kidding. Did you forget to type this in green?

A tire kicker is someone who only cares about one thing: the lowest price. That is guaranteed to get them a lousy job but that's not what is most important to them. I have seen this type of person knowingly waste somebody's time, just to see if the person they intended to use was giving them "the best price." Their word is no good.

As an example I've had land owners ask me for a bid on the construction of a new building, a bid that would take me a month to prepare, when they already had a contractor picked and just needed a better bid to leverage their first bid downward. I'm not stupid and I don't mind telling this sort of asswipe to go pound sand.

JR

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by javadog

...

I am amazed by the comments I read here that people can't find the time to make a simple phone call during the day. If you think you're that busy, you're a poor time manager. There is a difference between busy and productive, you ought to learn it. Seriously.

Bye now,
JR

I assume the phone call remark referred to me. If you could find time to think about it, there is a big difference between not being some who "cannot" make a call during the day and someone that chooses not to. Seems pretty clear to me. Why would it even cross your mind to make assumptions about someone else's employment or life?
The situation is simple. I have money and work. I am willing to pay equal or more than the going rate in the area where the work is to be performed. If a person wants to do some of my work for me and earn some of that money...they need to be accessable to me. I cannot call them or meet with them from about 6am until about 8pm...and I am either out of town or out of the country on short notice...a lot. My life is one that requires a lot of sacrifice...but one that also pays pretty well. I cannot adjust what I do...so a person that wants my business has to make the adjustment if they want the work; take it or leave it. Someone else will be happy to get the work. I will have more time and availablity some day...maybe after I retire. But, then I will do the work my self.
If people in business cannot make adjustments to suit the customer...they really do not want the work. Anyone that is not hungry enough to make themself available to potential customers are not hungry enough for the work to suit me anyways. What is this country coming to?

[look 171]

Originally Posted by fintstone

I assume the phone call remark referred to me. If you could find time to think about it, there is a big difference between not being some who "cannot" make a call during the day and someone that chooses not to. Seems pretty clear to me. Why would it even cross your mind to make assumptions about someone else's employment or life?
The situation is simple. I have money and work. I am willing to pay equal or more than the going rate in the area where the work is to be performed. If a person wants to do some of my work for me and earn some of that money...they need to be accessable to me. I cannot call them or meet with them from about 6am until about 8pm...and I am either out of town or out of the country on short notice...a lot. My life is one that requires a lot of sacrifice...but one that also pays pretty well. I cannot adjust what I do...so a person that wants my business has to make the adjustment if they want the work; take it or leave it. Someone else will be happy to get the work. I will have more time and availablity some day...maybe after I retire. But, then I will do the work my self.
If people in business cannot make adjustments to suit the customer...they really do not want the work. Anyone that is not hungry enough to make themself available to potential customers are not hungry enough for the work to suit me anyways. What is this country coming to?

Yeah, what is this country coming to? I use to get calls at 9:30 oir 10:00 in the evening about some idea that they have over dinner for adesign change. Of course I don't return their calls. They call Sundays, WTF? It workd both ways. When I did the project for the retired general ambassador of Germany in Pasadena, they were living in France and we would call each other only in the morning or late night, so was can have enjoy our private time. It works both ways.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by javadog

You have got to be kidding. Did you forget to type this in green?

A tire kicker is someone who only cares about one thing: the lowest price. That is guaranteed to get them a lousy job but that's not what is most important to them. I have seen this type of person knowingly waste somebody's time, just to see if the person they intended to use was giving them "the best price." Their word is no good.

As an example I've had land owners ask me for a bid on the construction of a new building, a bid that would take me a month to prepare, when they already had a contractor picked and just needed a better bid to leverage their first bid downward. I'm not stupid and I don't mind telling this sort of asswipe to go pound sand.

JR

That asswipe is just using you to get a better price, and guess what- it works.

Smart buyer.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

If you talked to me like that wrt a job i was looking to have done i'd slam the door in your face and go order a pizza.

There are plenty of fellas doing the same job as you that can do it without the attitude, and do it with a smile. I'd even pay them more to do it.

If i wanted to deal with an acidic personality i'd just get married.

Seriously, "tire kickers" as you put it are just another term for "educated consumers."

You want idiots for customers, like all salesmen do. I don't blame you, but some people actually use their brain before they make big purchases, and those people will want some explanation for why a job you quote costs what it costs.

I do my job with a huge smile. Please calm down. In my contract, every thing is broken down by trade and how much for each. I even spells out how much I will be making by the end of the job. I don't understand why do I need to break it down any more into hours. How much time does it take to build a custom set of cabinets for your kitchen? How do I break down 30K worth of the cabinetry into man hours. Shoud I include staining and finishing? Insatllation and delivery and design? I sure can but it will take an hour to put it in writing. This is only one small thing. The last big remodel was over 350000+. I don't know how else to talk to you so you understand. So let just say I have broken it down for you, what would you do. Thanks, I think you are too much. but it was too much to begining with, when you first heard about the number. What did I just do? I spend a week of more just because you want to know. That my friend, is a tire kicker, not an educated client. Do you still think that's attitude or...

enjoy the pizza, I am one of those guys they pay more to do the job, because we always get it done, on time, on budget and with a smile always, and my clients know it.


Jeff

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by fintstone

I assume the phone call remark referred to me. If you could find time to think about it, there is a big difference between not being some who "cannot" make a call during the day and someone that chooses not to. Seems pretty clear to me. Why would it even cross your mind to make assumptions about someone else's employment or life?
The situation is simple. I have money and work. I am willing to pay equal or more than the going rate in the area where the work is to be performed. If a person wants to do some of my work for me and earn some of that money...they need to be accessable to me. I cannot call them or meet with them from about 6am until about 8pm...and I am either out of town or out of the country on short notice...a lot. My life is one that requires a lot of sacrifice...but one that also pays pretty well. I cannot adjust what I do...so a person that wants my business has to make the adjustment if they want the work; take it or leave it. Someone else will be happy to get the work. I will have more time and availablity some day...maybe after I retire. But, then I will do the work my self.
If people in business cannot make adjustments to suit the customer...they really do not want the work. Anyone that is not hungry enough to make themself available to potential customers are not hungry enough for the work to suit me anyways. What is this country coming to?

I agree with you entirely.

Any contractor that refuses work because he's "too good for this crap" will lose the job to one who is not.

Simple as that.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by look 171

Yeah, what is this country coming to? I use to get calls at 9:30 oir 10:00 in the evening about some idea that they have over dinner for adesign change. Of course I don't return their calls. They call Sundays, WTF? It workd both ways. When I did the project for the retired general ambassador of Germany in Pasadena, they were living in France and we would call each other only in the morning or late night, so was can have enjoy our private time. It works both ways.

No it doesn't. If you don't need the work...cut out half your potential customers. Just don't be one of those that whine about not getting enough work. I have no problem not paying my money to people who cannot do business by email when it is the only method I have available. My employer expects to be able to contact me 24 hrs per day if necessary...and expects me to show up 30 minutes later ready to go to whatever God-forsaken place they want me to go to. They expect me to regularly work 12 hrs per day or more under often poor conditions. I have no problem asking people I employ to simply communicate via email. If they choose not to make themself available, then they can find their work elsewhere. There are people that actually want to work that will do the job.