I'm not getting along with the 30 somethings.

[VaSteve]

Hook up with a Realtor who can recommend you to clients. I don't mess around with Angie's list or any of that. If I want someone that does your type of work, I call my old realtor. I bought the house 5 years ago through her and will call for that kind of thing. She's in it for the long haul so she has incentive not to recommend idiots.

I do a lot of stuff based on price, but a good recommendation goes a long way.

[POORSH]

Originally Posted by Rikao4

hold on the aggressive..
it's sales...
it's about trust..
listen..listen
if they feel they can trust you..
price becomes secondary..
spend some time explaining the why's,how come,
what you have found to be a better product..
the rep. of contractors flies ahead of you..
you need to show/convince them you not one of them..
I can get cheap a mechanic or
I continue to trust Jones Autowerks
Jones has had my biz for 11 yrs.

Rika

+1. Although a premium should also be within reason.

[jeffgrant]

Milt-

It might be that they look at you as a "washed up old man", and don't know what value that 38 years of experience you have brings to the table. Hell, do they even KNOW that you have 38 years of experience?

I'd recommend putting together a little package (brochure? PDF doc? whatever?) outlining who you are, your experience, the work you've done, and the situations where that experience paid off for your clients. Make it relate to their situation.

In other words, help educate them to understand what your value is, and get them thinking about the right questions that would make them come to the conclusion that you're the guy for the job. Get them to think about the questions they SHOULD be asking other contractors, but either don't know to, or won't get the "right" (AKA "Milt's") answers to.

If you come off as having their best interest mind, it works wonders.

I have to do the same thing in application/systems development... it seems that 99% of my time is spent educating the client before they sign on to use me for the project so they know what they're looking at or can expect.

And, when all is said and done, there are still a bunch of idiots out there who are going to make stupid, ill-informed decisions, regardless of what others do to try and help them.


Best of luck to you...

[look 171]

Milt, I am just a llittle over 30 something. I don't go after that 30 something group. They usually don't have any money or should I say deep pockets. Many on that group are the know it all who's done research on the net or see too much HD freaking TV. They feel everybody is ripping them off. Unless they live in an up scale neighborhood or have friends, familes whom we have done work for, or leads from an architect or designer we know. If not forget it. I have not read through all of the posts yet, but I will get back to you later. I gotta to finish this stupid bid for a big cheese who manages a bunch computer geeks who build smart bombs. He's 39 and drives a Boxter, After this, I am thinking hopefully he will be 40 when he signs the contract with us. This is our 6th meeting with with designers and architects. Talking about spending time. I am with you, I have never, ever done ****ty work. We build above and beyond min code and give sound advice. I know what you mean about that 30 something group. Let em' get screw then they will love guys like us. They will be back. We have to go out and have a beer and talk war stories. I am sure I can learn a bunch from you in both business and tricks of the trade.

[TimT]

it seems that 99% of my time is spent educating the client before they sign on to use me

Someone hit their head on the nail..

[Zeke]

My basic approach has always been to educate the potential customer on whatever they are getting ready to purchase, Yes, I have so many photo albums that they are boring. I've actually separated them into categories. I never sell from the negative. I don't raz on other contractors. And, again yes, the bulk of my work has always been referrals, but with less people doing work, there is less asking friends, etc., who is good.

90 % of the customers I encounter are women. The last 2 youngins' that didn't bother to respond got me be referral. I have to admit that there are certain types I won't respond to. I won't identify them here because I don't want to start a war. They may be not who you think. I might add 30 somethings to the list.

Good idea about the leads groups. If I can find a seniors referral channel, I may go that route. I'm not looking for much these days, just a little work now and then to keep me busy when I want to be and to keep the wolf away from the door.

[javadog]

I feel your pain. I'm in commercial construction and I do work for large companies. Over the last 10 or 15 years I have seen the old guard kicked to the curb and replaced by a generation that is truly clueless. It seems to me that this country is headed down the hill, but fast.

Each year it gets harder for me to accept the truly stupid decisions that I see on an essentially daily basis. I work for people that have no idea what they are supposed to be doing and I end up having to tell them how to do their jobs, just to get projects fnished. You wouldn't believe the money they waste.

I'd love to get out of the business.

JR

[Zeke]

Out of the business. My dream. I think continuously about what I could be doing besides what I do. It's just such a good fit for me. I mean if I were 20, I could be a lifeguard. There is so much that is no longer possible and the list grows short.

Remember the the career thread? Amazing how many worked their way up into engineering and such from flipping burgers and mowing grass. I've been too enthralled with the damn tools of the trade to move up.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Milt, there's a lot of good advice in this thread. Most of it centers on selling yourself. You know that you're better than 98% of the yahoos out there, but you have to ensure that your CUSTOMERS understand. As opposed to a photo album, how about a professionally prepared flyer with a few interesting pictures, customer referrals, and information on your experience and beliefs? Make them KNOW that you are the best.

Also, try to focus on what most other contractors are NOT. Show up in a clean, professional vehicle. Be neatly groomed and on time. Write up a comprehensive estimate and make sure you explain things that you are doing where others might cut corners. Make sure you can be easily reached (cell, text, email, etc) and RETURN THOSE PHONE CALLS. Not saying you don't do these things, but most contractors don't.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by Souk

Sales and convenience....

If you can sell yourself, then the next step is to make yourself available via e-mail or text. It takes me minutes to text someone or tap out an e-mail on my Blackberry, but I'd have to find time to place a call or return a call. I can text in the elevator or on the pooper..... I can't always take calls placed to my cell when I'm working, and I wont' run out of a meeting to return a call. When I'm done with the meeting I'm rushing to get stuff done before the next meeting or call or what ever. By the time I get back to thinking about something personal...it's 6 PM and it's too late to call back people who have regular business hours...

Souk is right. I have a little money and work that needs to be done in several different states..yet I cannot even seem to contact folks to do the work for me. I work 12 to 14 hours per day and have little time to screw around and I cannot make calls during the day. I have been trying to get some work done for over a year in NC by a man that has done work for me before. I know he needs the work, but without a web or email presence...we just cannot do business because I cannot contact him unless I happen to catch him by calling on a rare day off...but I am usually too busy. The last time I was able to get a job accomplished was by posting here looking for a Pelican that would do carpentry work in the area. One called and took charge of my problem and I gave him pretty much a blank check and decision authority to determine what work was needed (turned out to be a $150K+ job). I am a pretty good carpenter for an amatuer and tend to let the jobs accumulate because I think I could do the jobs myself if I just had time.

Also, it seems to me that many contractors/bulders just are not realistic and try their best to sell me something I do not want. Don't try to force me to buy something that is outrageously expensive for my tract house (that actually belongs in the Taj Mahal. I had A/C installed in my hme in NM. I wanted zoned heating and cooling for the house (2 small units) but let the guy talk me into a cheaper solution (a single very large unit). He probably thought I would not do the job if it were expensive..but I would not have asked if that was not what I wanted. I have been quite unhappy with the system I bough because I have a great deal of difficulty balancing temperatures between floors or heat or cool different floors independently (which is certainly inefficient)>

[jyl]

Do you have a website? Many young people today expect to see everything on the web, a business without at least a simple website seems sketchy, flakey, etc. Also a website is a great way to show your work, present your qualifications, showcase testimonials, sell your services.

Do you get your clients to give you good reviews on services like Angies List? I usually find a contractor, if not by word of mouth, through that site. Maybe others here can suggest other such sites.

Do you take time to explain to the prospective client what work is involved, give them a little tidbit of insight so they feel knowledgeable and included, state your warranty terms, etc? Most young people have little experience in having work done, they are insecure, and as willing to pay for feeling secure and reassured as they are ready to fall for a sales job. They have certainly heard horror stories about rip-off contractors and often would pay more if they are confident of not getting one.

[HardDrive]

Huh.

Well, as a thirty something, I'll play.

How about this? We are not interested in your 38 years worth of war stories or your personal charm. Show us a presentation about what work you have done, provide excellent graphics, be able to discuss what we are seeing in depth. My generation is not into 'folksy'. We are into 'Powerpoint'. We want information in a format we can quantify. We want incentives.

Were demanding SOBs. Sorry.

[HardDrive]

[snarky]

BTW, if you don't have a website, then do kindly get a clue.

[/snarky]

[look 171]

HardDrive,

Web site? I love those. Now we are on the subject of age, a 40 year old neighbor(owner of a gasket company) has been wanting to build me a web site that show case all my work and pages of who I am and what we have done. All for free, because I held his hand through a tough hill side addition with his contractor whom he later fired when I first moved there. That's his privite life we weren't suppose to know about. A geek. I refused time and again. He couldn't understand why. swears that it is necessary in today electronic / now world. He saids the calls will never stop. Some of us don't want to be pester with tire kickers. that's how we weed them out. You gotta return emails or sit on the phone to answer their 100 questions. I much rather go out to their place and see the site and meet their wife, kids and ask a bunch of questions to see if they have the money to fund the project before I begin to help them. After the 2nd meeting, I will know if they are the clients for us. Big job or small it makes no difference. Then most of my clients will come over to the house and hang out on the deck have a beer or glass wine and look at drawings. I like the relax way of doing business. Takes the edge off for the both of us. Plus, they get to meet the family , check out all the trick stuff I have done to the house. This way, they know we don't live in the back of a pick-up truck and we will never run away with they deposit because they know where I live. I don't do emails nor have pictures of past work. By the time they come to the house, they are more likely to sign unless they are over budget. In the past 10-12 years, I got about 90+ % of the jobs I looked at unless it blows their budget. They already know who we are through their friends or family. I always return calls within 24 hours even if I wasn't interested in the job. I provide an excellence service, and always meet with the owners at the end of the day during the proj. At least 3 time our of the week. No offence, a lot of 30 somethings can't affort to pay (sometimes to do thing right or custom work). they just don't have the cash flow and are always look for a bargan jsut to get it done. that's ok.

Just how old are you HardDrive? mid or late 30s. I am 42 and that's not that old. I truly think that you are wrong about personal charm. Very important in sales. What do you know about that? By your screen name, It sounds you look at a screen more then you talk to people. How many remodel or construction projects have you done? Indepth discussion cost money. I notice you mention you want too many times. Information cost money. Design, cost money are you willing to part with it at $120 + an hour. See what I mean, after talking with someone for 10 minutes I know if I want to work with them or not. Judging from what you say, it doesn't sound like you have a lot of experience in dealing in business or people. don't knock the old guys. they know a lot more then you think. a lot. I am getting there quick. don't get piss, I am not trying to attack you. I am just telling you as I see it.

[look 171]

I forget to add, most 30 somethings get sticker shock if you are the first they talk to. They can't get a grip on how much a remod proj cost.

Last month, a friend's friend, (3rd grade teacher and her husband in their late 30s. Really nice people) called about a kitchen remodel for a house they had purchased last year. When I got to meet with them, they told me they had some money saved and like to do a remodel. They didn't want to tell me what their budget and kept asking for a rough price. I said about 30-45K. they almost felt out of their seat. They said they have some money saved, what kitchen can...

































$9000 get us? They just don't know and have never done it before so I can't blame them. I am going to have them pay one of my workman go in after hours and weekend and help them out to see if they can get something done. NIce people should get a break. they weren't demanding, and didn't have their noses up in the air. I like and respect that a lot.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by milt

My basic approach has always been to educate the potential customer on whatever they are getting ready to purchase, Yes, I have so many photo albums that they are boring. I've actually separated them into categories. I never sell from the negative. I don't raz on other contractors. And, again yes, the bulk of my work has always been referrals, but with less people doing work, there is less asking friends, etc., who is good.

90 % of the customers I encounter are women. The last 2 youngins' that didn't bother to respond got me be referral. I have to admit that there are certain types I won't respond to. I won't identify them here because I don't want to start a war. They may be not who you think. I might add 30 somethings to the list.

Good idea about the leads groups. If I can find a seniors referral channel, I may go that route. I'm not looking for much these days, just a little work now and then to keep me busy when I want to be and to keep the wolf away from the door.

I understanding you don't want a war. But, business is business and you should choose who you want to do business with and who you don't. They don't like it, screw em'. they ain't writting the checks are they. Experience forces you to group them into a certain catagories. you become prejudice through it. It a good thing. That's your survival mode kicking in.

you mention that other needing more money to finish. I can't understanding that. if a home owner do not see guarentee maxium price for said project in the contract, then they should ger ripped off. If I underbid, I always finish even if I have to take it in my shorts. thanks god those days are over.

[Taz's Master]

2 things: #1 Just because a person asks for a bid doesn't mean the job gets done by anyone. It doesn't matter if you are highest or lowest price, if they only have 1/3 the money the project will cost (especially if they are looking to upgrade rather than replace out of necessity) nobody is doing the work.

A generation ago someone in their 30's would have been on their own for better than a decade, and when they had contractors bid a job they had a good idea what they were getting into. Today's generation is further behind the curve, they are getting established later in life, and consequently, it is more like dealing with someone in their 20's of a generation ago. They are finding out for the first time what the cost of doing business is.

#2 Lots of people are completely bottom line folks. Either spending more than the lowest price is wasting money, OR, price = quality, so therefore the highest estimate is the best work. You might be losing out on work that you could do better, but the customer thinks he's getting higher quality because your competitor charges more.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

Huh.

Well, as a thirty something, I'll play.

How about this? We are not interested in your 38 years worth of war stories or your personal charm. Show us a presentation about what work you have done, provide excellent graphics, be able to discuss what we are seeing in depth. My generation is not into 'folksy'. We are into 'Powerpoint'. We want information in a format we can quantify. We want incentives.

Were demanding SOBs. Sorry.

Are you guys all ADD? Was it all those years of playing video games that did you in? Too many Mountain Dews?

Don't take this personally, as I don't have time for a flame war, but I see your generation as not taking the time to learn much about life. Instant gratification is what you want, although you don't have enough experience to know good quality when you see it. Looking back, I didn't know doodly squat when I hit my 30's. You don't either.

The younger generations mostly lack what I would call old-fashioned values. No respect, no patience, no humility. They are selfish to the nth degree.

I am amazed by the comments I read here that people can't find the time to make a simple phone call during the day. If you think you're that busy, you're a poor time manager. There is a difference between busy and productive, you ought to learn it. Seriously.

Bye now,
JR

[VINMAN]

I found out, that in the home improvement business, the two worst customers are on the opposite ends of the spectrum. The clueless young and the cheap frugal elderly. The young have no idea what things are worth,and not everything is like you see on television 'home shows". The older customers want everything for nothing and will nickle and dime you. Plus they hover over you as you work. But I would still rather deal with them.

The younger clients just want it done right away and dont really give a crap about what is involved in a job. They expect you to be a miracle worker.

I've walked away from many good $$ jobs, just because I knew the customer was going to be a nightmare to deal with.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by javadog

The younger generations mostly lack what I would call old-fashioned values. No respect, no patience, no humility. They are selfish to the nth degree.

Who is the customer here?

Respect and humility and particularly patience are exactly what is lacking in many contractors. Any homeowner who doesn't like your proposal is automatically a selfish, disrespectful punk who has no appreciation for the old ways. I guess that just because a contractor may be a grizzled old man who has been slogging away for 30+ yrs we should all bow down and pay whatever he asks and never even think to price shop lest he be offended. And God forbid anyone should ask for a time & materials quote.