Ducati 900 SS - Humbled at the Dyno

[Jeff Higgins]

I took advantage of a free dyno day at Ducati of Seattle on Saturday, running my '93 900 SS. The SuperFlow WinDyn showed about 74 hp @ 7,000 rpm, and 60 ft lbs of torque @ 5,800 rpm. With the usual +15% to get crank hp, that works out to about 85. Nothing to write home about...

There were several variants of the Japanese 600 sport bike genre there that day. The lowest one pulled was about 92 hp, the highest just cracked 100. I didn't get the torque numbers on them, as the big screen we were all watching only showed hp (my paper printout shows torque). I would be curious what kind of torque numbers these produce (looking for a bone here, after having been so thoroughly humbled on the hp end).

High hp for the day was a ZX14 that pulled somewhere in the mid 140's. A Hayubusa was in the 140's as well. I would have expected a bit more from these bikes, especially in light of the power of the 600's that were there.

It's weird, though, in that I have had occasion to "play" along with several folks on different bikes in the time I've had the Duc (almost a year already). The 600's are generally toast, especially in the tighter twisties. In retrospect, though, when the roads open up a bit and speeds increase, I generally just let them go (not interested in triple digits on the street, no matter how lonely the road).

Anyway, it was an interesting day. I'm still convinced I have the right bike for my riding style, but I have to admit, I was well and truly impressed by those little 600's.

[Gogar]

Jeff, my 1987 CBR 600 has just under 100 at the crank (at 10.5Krpm). The torque numbers are paltry, though. My buddy the PO had switched sprockets from 15/44 to 15/52, so he thought it pulled pretty well . . . . . It would only go about 100 or 110, but if you could shift fast enough, you could do it in about a block and a half. Not my thing.

[NICKG]

my 1000ss was only 87 hp with the DP performance stuff...still more than enough for me....heck my monster 620 was enough. Duc(the 2v kind) are not about ultimate power...it is the experience..the sound...the fun. I miss my ducs badly, when the economy swings back i am getting another one...(m1100 looking great)

[Jeff Higgins]

Make no mistake, I'm am very happy with my Duc. The real outcome of all of this was to leave me wondering just how someone could actually use that much more power. My Duc will lift the front wheel just by rolling on the power up through third gear; no need to pull up on the bars, pull in the clutch and rev it, or anything like that. These other bikes must do that in just about any gear. Wow.

I do have to say (o.k., so I'm biased...) that the old two valve "carbie" won on sheer cool factor. No one else popped and banged like it did on the decel; it actually lit up the dimly lit dyno room with a couple of good pops, receiving enthusiastic applause from the crowd outside, looking in through the window. Take that, you super sano, fuel injected, power-commandered lightweights... my bike farts in your general direction...

[NICKG]

you know that in 10 years, all those jap bikes will be cool still..but basically worthless (few exceptions)..your Duc will be appreciating and will be just as cool then as now (probably more)

[jwasbury]

Yup...no bragging rights on a dyno with the old 2valve duc. Its about useable power. The 600cc superbikes are absolutely nuts wrt power to weight ratios. I always chuckle to myself when newcomers to the motorcycle world buy a 600cc crotch rocket and say "I wanted a 600cc because its a good beginner bike." A good rider on a 600 should be able crush our old ducs in any situation.

I went from a 1987 Honda Hurricane (CBR600) to my 1995 Duc Monster 900. Its slower, but much more forgiving in the twisties. The inline 4 600 needed to be spun at 10k plus rpms to get into the power...and once it gets there, redline comes very quickly. Gear selection becomes very important in the tight stuff. Duc by contrast allows you to focus more on cornering technique and the torque pulls you through, even if you're in 1 cog too high a gear.

[Rusty Heap]

Jeff,

What is it with you and soot farting flame spewing tree killing carbon footprint exhaust systems?..............it runs in your blood whether 2 wheels or 4......? he heh.

You sure you were a proctologist in a past life?

The word "proctology" is derived from the Greek words Proktos, meaning anus or hindparts, and Logos meaning science or study. (Thank you Wikipedia)

And man Jeff, all your vehicles are certainly a study, conversation point, and frequent maintenance of their hindparts.

Cheers to the dyno day you nut.

[island911]

ya mean you didn't put the Harley on the dyno?

[Superman]

I'm surprised I have to point out the fallacy of your interpretation Jeff, particularly since you undoubtedly understand this better than I do. but horsepower is a BS number. Torque is power. As the saying goes, horsepower sells cars......torque wins races. Horsepower equals torque times rpm divided by 5250.

HP = (torque * rpm) / 5250

Therefore, the way to artificially infate the number is to make as much power as possible at insane engine speeds. I rode my nephew's super-cool amazing hotrod zipsplat Japanese crotchrocket and happened to notice it redlined at about 16,000 rpm. If it could make 60 lb/ft of torque at that engine speed, it would be making 182 horsepower.

BFD if those bikes were making 40 lb/ft of torque at ridiculous engine speeds. I'm guessing that if you had been able to look at their torque curves, you would have gone home with your held held higher.

[greglepore]

Brilliant Supe! The whole reason I love the 2v Ducs is their tractability and torque. SOOO much easier to ride fast than similar hp 4 cyl bikes.

[m21sniper]

There's always something faster Jeff.

Fuhgeddaboudit.

[island911]

Originally Posted by Superman

I'm surprised I have to point out the fallacy of your interpretation Jeff, particularly since you undoubtedly understand this better than I do. but horsepower is a BS number. Torque is power. As the saying goes, horsepower sells cars......torque wins races. Horsepower equals torque times rpm divided by 5250.

HP = (torque * rpm) / 5250

Therefore, the way to artificially inflate the number.....

You are just confusing the issue more.

You are best off if you have both. In many engines, the torque falls off fast (w/ increasing rpm) and therefore you only have usable torque thru a narrow rpm range. This is why car-nuts use peak HP as a useful (quick) metric. (usu w/ rpm info included ...and often with peak torque #'s as well

[MysticLlama]

There is also the torque multiplier effect of gearing, that's the part that is usually forgotten in this whole thing, and the HP is the rating of work done over time.

For two vehicles of equal torque, the one that makes more horsepower via rpm can continue for a longer period of time in the lower gear, giving it more torque multiplication to the wheels.

This is part of the reason my M3 is fast to 60 even given it's relative lack of torque (260ish), it can spin 2nd up to 8000rpm and thus have a bigger gearing advantage in 2nd and still hit 60 than a car that can only turn to 6000rpm and is also geared for 60 in 2nd.

This is why I figure the M3 and GTO have similar 0-60 times even given that the GTO has a ton more torque and they are of similar weights.

Edit: that said, if you're not in the powerband of the gearing, you're not gaining it's advantage, and winding out a bike consistently to the upper ranges is probably a hard thing to do in the twisties, so the fatter torque curve wins in that sort of situation.

[HardDrive]

Originally Posted by NICKG

you know that in 10 years, all those jap bikes will be cool still..but basically worthless (few exceptions)..your Duc will be appreciating and will be just as cool then as now (probably more)

+1

You own a piece of art, not merely a motorcycle.

[Jeff Higgins]

You guys are all correct, of course. As I related above, my real world, on the road experiences, tell a different tale than the dyno. I have to think the guys on the 600's just aren't keeping them wound as tight as they should, probably at least a gear (or two) too high most of the time.

I'll wind up a gear "too high" coming out of the corners sometimes, but I'm doing it on purpose. It serves to soften the blow when my right wrist gets a little too eager, while still providing just about all of the power I can use anyway. It's not nearly the penalty it is on a bike lacking the torque to back it up; I know that. On my old Duc, pulling from 4,000 to 5,000 rpm isn't much different than pulling from 6,000 to 7,000.

Guilty as charged, Dave. You'll never find me behind the handlebars or steering wheel of something "normal" or, heaven forbid - "civilized". Just can't do it...

[Aerkuld]

I think the modern 600's are probably putting out something in the region of 45 ft-lbs peak torque at around 12,000rpm.

As an intersting comparison I used to have a Yamaha FZR400 and a Ducati 750SS. Both bikes had about the same power but the FZR only put out about 28 ft-lbs at 9,500 rpm. The Ducati was more in the region of 52 ft-lbs at 6,500 rpm.
The FZR was a hoot to ride but you had to thrash hard to get anything out of it. The 14,000 rpm red line really encouraged you to do that though (this was mid 90's). The Ducati was also fun but in a totally different way. It would pull far harder and was generally much easier to ride fast. The Ducati was out of steam at about 9,000 rpm though.
If I was buying one of those bikes again I can safely tell you it would be red.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Not entirely germane to the discussion, but interesting so I thought I'd add. MA DMV created a free education/training day for experienced sport bike riders and I attended last Saturday. It was taught by Boston Moto (track days/racing) and I learned a lot of bike control...good class. And I see myself renting leathers a few days this summer.

Anyway, every new "hot bike" was there. Mine was the only one that:

everyone gathered around and wanted to know more about.

an instructor wanted to use for demo'ing techniques (and a quick ride around after class)

sounded like a motorcycle of it's type should, not like an asthmatic Vespa

[HHI944]

Originally Posted by greglepore

Brilliant Supe! The whole reason I love the 2v Ducs is their tractability and torque. SOOO much easier to ride fast than similar hp 4 cyl bikes.

My old 750ss had been mildly tweaked by the kind souls at BCM well before I came into possesion. I could roll-on wheelie in 2nd and I weighed 255 when I rode. That thing was TONS more fun than my GSXR600.

[Gogar]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Not entirely germane to the discussion, but interesting so I thought I'd add. MA DMV created a free education/training day for experienced sport bike riders

Thats a use of taxpayers' money that I could vote for.

Nothing scares me more than beginners on 180hp liter bikes. And trust me, they're EVERYWHERE. And there's a girl on the back. And the guy is probably wearing flip-flops.

[Tobra]

Dyno? How hot do your brakes get on a dyno? How much wear do you get on the shoulders of your tires on a dyno? Who cares

Supes, you are right with your formula, but revs are free, that is why F1 cars use 20,000 of them