DECISIVE BATTLES - Pick The Most Decisive and Provide Rationale...

[m21sniper]

The German attack into france was a similar reprise of their WWI attack Westward. Like WWI, they failed.

Blitzkrieg had really been invented in WWI....by the Allies.

The only thing the Germans added new to the mix was the introduction of radios in every tank and armored vehicle.

Edit: Word in bold changed from "perfected" to "invented."

[tabs]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

The German attack into france was a similar reprise of their WWI attack Westward. Like WWI, they failed.

Blitzkrieg had really been perfected in WWI....by the Allies.

The only thing the Germans added new to the mix was the introduction of radios in every tank and armored vehicle.

BlitzKrieg in reality is a combined arms attack... Using massed armour, artillery and tactical airpower. With infantry in a supporting role to hold the flanks and pour through the hole punched by the armoured columns.

What the Germans improved upon was massing/concentrating their armoured to attack at one strategic point

The French in 1940 had more and better tanks than the Germans however they used them in small numbers instead of creating a critical mass at one srategic point in the line.

[tabs]

The Battle of the Bulge should not be on the list at all...the Germans had no chance of success and were virtually finished by the time they launched Hitlers ill conceived last gamble.

Stalingrad was a turning point but did not put the nails in the German coffin in the East...Kursk did.

The German failure to take Moscow was in the long run the fatal mistake. Instead of moving on the Southern front towards Stalingrad the Germans should have renewed their attempt to take Moscow. FOr one reason only...Moscow is the Rail and transportation hub of Russia...all road leads through Moscow.

[tabs]

Churchill upon hearing of the Japanese bombing at Pearl Harbor stated that now that America had entered the war, the Allies had won the war...that was the industrial might of the USA..America alone dwarfed all the Axis powers industrial capacity all by itself.

Japan NEVER HAD A CHANCE...in the first year of the war the US and Japan lost an equal number of capital ships..Japan could not replace them..

Even by Midway in 6/42 the Japanese aircraft carriers were feeling the loss of trained pilots and were understaffed.

Japan when it bombed Pearl Harbor committed suicide... Yamamoto unbderstood that, as so stated it..That he could run riot with the Americans for 6 months but after that all bets were off...

[Hawktel]

Tours.

Charles Martel is the reason we all don't pray 5 times a day.

[varmint]

1260 ain jalut
mamluk egyptians turn back the mongol horde. hulagu kahn dies shortly thereafter.

1521 mexico
cortez defeats the aztec empire and lays open the whole new world.

1529 siege of vienna
high water mark f the turks in europe.

1571 lepanto
the holy league defeats the turkish fleet off greece. another reason we don't all pray to mecca.

1759 quebec
wolfe drives the french out of north america. and sets up the revolution.

1916 the somme
european suicide.

1940-45 the carpet bombing of europe
flattened hitler's war industry, and ground the luftwaffe to dust.

1945 hiroshima
changed the world.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by tabs

BlitzKrieg in reality is a combined arms attack... Using massed armour, artillery and tactical airpower. With infantry in a supporting role to hold the flanks and pour through the hole punched by the armoured columns.

What the Germans improved upon was massing/concentrating their armoured to attack at one strategic point

This was done in WWI by the Allies. Massed tanks and planes led the Allied attack in several late war battles.

Originally Posted by tabs

The French in 1940 had more and better tanks than the Germans however they used them in small numbers instead of creating a critical mass at one srategic point in the line.

Quite true.

However. File it under the "man forgets every lesson of war" category.

I agree with virtually every word you wrote in the 2 posts after the one i've quoted here as well, by the way.

[Taz's Master]

Although Vicksburg was a success of huge importance, Chancellorsville (a Union defeat) was probably more important for a Union victory for the Civil War. I don't believe the North wins Gettysburg with Jackson on the battlefield. Stonewall would have found a way to take Little Roundtop. I think in all likelihood that a Union defeat at Gettysburg results in a divided nation.

Washington's victory over the mercenary Hessians at The Battle of Trenton may have preserved his army.

[Taz's Master]

The Treaty of Versailles, in laying the foundation and setting the stage for WW II brought us nuclear war, Soviet domination of Eastern Europe, the creation of Israel and the current instability in the ME. Much of the unrest in the world can be traced back to that treaty, it has done more to shape our modern world than anything I can think of, and it stands as an example of the results of European Diplomacy.

[Tim Walsh]

I do find it interesting that the English's routing of the Spanish Armada isn't mentioned since it sets up the English's dominance on the high seas and the expansion of the British empire across the globe. If it wasn't for that I expect we'd be all speaking spanish, not english.

[Super_Dave_D]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

This was done in WWI by the Allies. Massed tanks and planes led the Allied attack in several late war battles.

Give examples of where true Blitzkrieg tactics was employed in WWI?? Blitzkrieg means 'lightning war' - I hardly think a 5mph tank that could be killed with a .50 AT Rifle would be an example of Blitzkrieg. There was no Air to ground support in WWI - to speak of if any.


The elements and weapons of Blitzkrieg

The elements of Blitzkrieg directly obey all the principles of war. That's what made it so successful.

Armor concentrations - the dense concentration of strong firepower, the high mobility, and the survivability of rapidly advancing large groups of tanks were far more than anything seen before it in any ground battlefield in history. It made Cavalry totally obsolete, and made infantry quite helpless in an open battlefield unless they were massively equipped with efficient anti-tank weapons which were developed only in response to Blitzkrieg and really matured only near the end of World War 2. The German tank units were highly trained. Many of them were considered elite units and provided the best soldiers and commanders. The German tanks were the first really efficient battle tanks. In addition to tanks, there were mechanized infantry units which allowed the infantry to advance together with the tanks, providing them better protection from enemy infantry and anti-tank units where they were more vulnerable to it. When infantry fighting vehicles were not available, the infantry used to simply ride over the tanks.

Massive precise air support - the effective precision destructiveness made possible by precise aerial bombardment left common artillery far behind. Artillery was also too slow to follow the rapidly advancing tank groups. So in addition to ordinary artillery, the German military was aided by a very large number of Stuka dive bombers which could quickly and efficiently destroy the enemy obstacles in the tanks path (artillery units, fortifications, infantry concentrations, bridges, convoys, etc).

Paratroopers were another type of air support, which could be used were key targets had to be quickly captured, not destroyed. One of their common tasks in Blitzkrieg was capturing key bridges, in order to prevent the enemy from destroying them, and allow the advancing tanks to reach them and rapidly cross without delay.

Radio - while the French High Command in 1940 was not even equipped with radio, it was radio communications in each tank each aircraft and each unit which allowed the German commanders to control their forces so effectively, and to utilize their air support so destructively and efficiently. Radio allowed German Blitzkrieg commanders to rapidly advance with their forces, see the battlefield with their eyes, not just on the map, and achieve much greater control of the situation and much better use their forces. Radio also enabled the German senior commanders to efficiently control huge mobile forces, more than ever before in history, allowing large scale cooperation and effective unity of command.

Flexibility - the German armor commander didn't have to follow a particular road or path. Their tactical freedom, provided by their superior mobility and quick response air support, allowed them to rapidly advance along the path of least resistance, much like water do in a flood, or to produce one, with the superior firepower of their tank guns and air support. This also allowed them to press on with little casualties, allowing them to maintain their thrust and effectiveness and advance further.
Initiative and surprise - the sheer speed and power of rapidly advancing forces and heavy bombardment in its territory, especially when it comes without warning, can easily shock every enemy. Persisting with that is even more devastating, and that's what the Germans did. They rapidly encircled massive enemy forces, cut supply lines, and made other large units collapse and lose their morale.

Simplicity - there was nothing complex in Blitzkrieg. It was a simple tactic made possible thanks to revolutionary modern weapons which made this type of warfare possible - the tank, the aircraft, and the radio. As with many other weapons and tactics, it could be greatly intensified with quality, and indeed with Cavalry-spirit commanders like Guderian and Rommel, with highly trained or combat experienced soldiers, and with excellent weapons as the Panzer IV and the Stuka dive bomber, the Germans were able to achieve amazing victories with Blitzkrieg.
Later during the war the Germans were eventually matched by equal armor commanders like Patton and Zhukov. Their tanks were outclassed by the Russian T-34 which was perhaps the best tank in World War 2. And the Stuka dive bomber was matched by superb tactical support aircraft like the Russian Il-2 Sturmovik which was the most armored aircraft in World War 2, and later by a new breed of American and British multi-role fighter-bombers.
Air superiority - is a supporting element, but a critical one. If the enemy has it, Blitzkrieg becomes impossible, as Rommel and other German commanders found out later during the war.

Logistics - is another critical supporting element which the Germans neglected, and it was the element which eventually crippled their military. A relatively short-range and short-time Blitzkrieg in good weather, as the invasions of Poland, France, Yugoslavia and Greece were, is one thing, and the Germans excelled there. But when they invaded Russia in 1941, the logistical needs they knew before were dwarfed by Russia's huge distances, terribly bad roads, and extreme winter conditions. Instead of so many horses and not enough trucks, the German military greatly needed many tracked vehicles capable of keeping with the tanks, moving both infantry and supplies, but they had much too few of them. Air supply by a fleet of cargo planes could also be helpful, but the Germans lost many of them in their airborne invasion of Crete, and lost many more in an arrogant and futile attempt to air-supply a whole army encircled in Stalingrad instead of allowing it to retreat.
In addition to the classic logistic problem of supplying a moving army with large quantities of food water and ammunition, the tanks also required large amounts of fuel and spare parts, and this problem greatly intensified for the Germans as the war progressed and crippled their armor. Later German tanks, the Tiger and King Tiger, were very technically complex and consumed much more fuel than the earlier Panzers, and so many of them were stuck or even lost because of technical faults and lack of fuel, not by enemy fire. So Blitzkrieg demanded not just tanks but also that they will be highly reliable, have long range, and be properly accompanied by a following mobile fleet of support vehicles of all types. The Germans neglected that less glorious side of war and paid heavily for that. At the later stages of the war the Russian army improved its mobile logistical support so much that its tank units could advance hundreds of miles almost non-stop, sometimes even refueling on the move, and of course relying on the very high technical reliability and simplicity of their vehicles.

[1967 R50/2]

You've give short shift to Naval engagements. Only the Armada is mentioned.

1 Of ancient battles, probably the most decisive was Actium. It assured the fate of the Roman Republic/Empire for centuries.

In the Eastern world, without a doubt Red Cliff was the most decisive battle.

2. During the middle ages,...well, let's face it, the western world was so fragmented that there were no lasting, decisive victories to be had either on land or sea. In the east, you could say the failed invasion of Japan by Kublai Khan was certainly decisive, even though it was not truly" a battle." It ensured Japanese nationhood uninterrupted into the modern era.

3. In the renaissance world, as already mentioned, the defeat of the Spanish Armada was key. Lepanto, as mentioned was also crucial, but I do not give it the weight of the Armada. It would have given the Turks better control of the trade routes, but hardly would indicate the conquest of Europe.

4. In the Napoleonic era...clearly Trafalgar cannot go without notice.

5. In the modern era: Midway. Battle could have gone either way and would really have decided the fate of the war in the Pacific.

I will grant you that WW2 wasn't decided in any one battle, but surely several battles were more key than others. On land, two were truly decisive: Stalingrad, and Kursk. Stalingrad halted the Wehrmacht advance forever and Kursk gutted them. After Kursk, it was just a matter of time before Hitler lost. Even if Normandy never took place.

[M.D. Holloway]

Originally Posted by Tim Walsh

I do find it interesting that the English's routing of the Spanish Armada isn't mentioned since it sets up the English's dominance on the high seas and the expansion of the British empire across the globe. If it wasn't for that I expect we'd be all speaking spanish, not english.

Defeat ofthe Spanish Armada - 7 people voted it most decisive. I agree, important, maybe top 5 but not they decisive.

As for speaking spainglish - come to Tejas and you will swear that the Spanish fleet still rules!

[Taz's Master]

Originally Posted by 1967 R50/2

I will grant you that WW2 was decided in any one battle, but surely several battles were more key than others. On land, two were truly decisive: Stalingrad, and Kursk. Stalingrad halted the Wehrmacht advance forever and Kursk gutted them. After Kursk, it was just a matter of time before Hitler lost. Even if Normandy never took place.

With no Normandy landing, or had the Germans pushed the Allies off the beaches, where do you think the limits on Soviet control of Europe would have been drawn? Do you think that would have resulted in the Cold War going hot? It's ironic that Normandy was pushed for by Stalin, but ended up setting limits for Soviet dominance of Europe.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Super_Dave_D

Give examples of where true Blitzkrieg tactics was employed in WWI?? Blitzkrieg means 'lightning war' - I hardly think a 5mph tank that could be killed with a .50 AT Rifle would be an example of Blitzkrieg. There was no Air to ground support in WWI - to speak of if any.


The elements and weapons of Blitzkrieg

The elements of Blitzkrieg directly obey all the principles of war. That's what made it so successful.

Armor concentrations - the dense concentration of strong firepower, the high mobility, and the survivability of rapidly advancing large groups of tanks were far more than anything seen before it in any ground battlefield in history. It made Cavalry totally obsolete, and made infantry quite helpless in an open battlefield unless they were massively equipped with efficient anti-tank weapons which were developed only in response to Blitzkrieg and really matured only near the end of World War 2. The German tank units were highly trained. Many of them were considered elite units and provided the best soldiers and commanders. The German tanks were the first really efficient battle tanks. In addition to tanks, there were mechanized infantry units which allowed the infantry to advance together with the tanks, providing them better protection from enemy infantry and anti-tank units where they were more vulnerable to it. When infantry fighting vehicles were not available, the infantry used to simply ride over the tanks.

Massive precise air support - the effective precision destructiveness made possible by precise aerial bombardment left common artillery far behind. Artillery was also too slow to follow the rapidly advancing tank groups. So in addition to ordinary artillery, the German military was aided by a very large number of Stuka dive bombers which could quickly and efficiently destroy the enemy obstacles in the tanks path (artillery units, fortifications, infantry concentrations, bridges, convoys, etc).

Paratroopers were another type of air support, which could be used were key targets had to be quickly captured, not destroyed. One of their common tasks in Blitzkrieg was capturing key bridges, in order to prevent the enemy from destroying them, and allow the advancing tanks to reach them and rapidly cross without delay.

Radio - while the French High Command in 1940 was not even equipped with radio, it was radio communications in each tank each aircraft and each unit which allowed the German commanders to control their forces so effectively, and to utilize their air support so destructively and efficiently. Radio allowed German Blitzkrieg commanders to rapidly advance with their forces, see the battlefield with their eyes, not just on the map, and achieve much greater control of the situation and much better use their forces. Radio also enabled the German senior commanders to efficiently control huge mobile forces, more than ever before in history, allowing large scale cooperation and effective unity of command.

Flexibility - the German armor commander didn't have to follow a particular road or path. Their tactical freedom, provided by their superior mobility and quick response air support, allowed them to rapidly advance along the path of least resistance, much like water do in a flood, or to produce one, with the superior firepower of their tank guns and air support. This also allowed them to press on with little casualties, allowing them to maintain their thrust and effectiveness and advance further.
Initiative and surprise - the sheer speed and power of rapidly advancing forces and heavy bombardment in its territory, especially when it comes without warning, can easily shock every enemy. Persisting with that is even more devastating, and that's what the Germans did. They rapidly encircled massive enemy forces, cut supply lines, and made other large units collapse and lose their morale.

Simplicity - there was nothing complex in Blitzkrieg. It was a simple tactic made possible thanks to revolutionary modern weapons which made this type of warfare possible - the tank, the aircraft, and the radio. As with many other weapons and tactics, it could be greatly intensified with quality, and indeed with Cavalry-spirit commanders like Guderian and Rommel, with highly trained or combat experienced soldiers, and with excellent weapons as the Panzer IV and the Stuka dive bomber, the Germans were able to achieve amazing victories with Blitzkrieg.
Later during the war the Germans were eventually matched by equal armor commanders like Patton and Zhukov. Their tanks were outclassed by the Russian T-34 which was perhaps the best tank in World War 2. And the Stuka dive bomber was matched by superb tactical support aircraft like the Russian Il-2 Sturmovik which was the most armored aircraft in World War 2, and later by a new breed of American and British multi-role fighter-bombers.
Air superiority - is a supporting element, but a critical one. If the enemy has it, Blitzkrieg becomes impossible, as Rommel and other German commanders found out later during the war.

Logistics - is another critical supporting element which the Germans neglected, and it was the element which eventually crippled their military. A relatively short-range and short-time Blitzkrieg in good weather, as the invasions of Poland, France, Yugoslavia and Greece were, is one thing, and the Germans excelled there. But when they invaded Russia in 1941, the logistical needs they knew before were dwarfed by Russia's huge distances, terribly bad roads, and extreme winter conditions. Instead of so many horses and not enough trucks, the German military greatly needed many tracked vehicles capable of keeping with the tanks, moving both infantry and supplies, but they had much too few of them. Air supply by a fleet of cargo planes could also be helpful, but the Germans lost many of them in their airborne invasion of Crete, and lost many more in an arrogant and futile attempt to air-supply a whole army encircled in Stalingrad instead of allowing it to retreat.
In addition to the classic logistic problem of supplying a moving army with large quantities of food water and ammunition, the tanks also required large amounts of fuel and spare parts, and this problem greatly intensified for the Germans as the war progressed and crippled their armor. Later German tanks, the Tiger and King Tiger, were very technically complex and consumed much more fuel than the earlier Panzers, and so many of them were stuck or even lost because of technical faults and lack of fuel, not by enemy fire. So Blitzkrieg demanded not just tanks but also that they will be highly reliable, have long range, and be properly accompanied by a following mobile fleet of support vehicles of all types. The Germans neglected that less glorious side of war and paid heavily for that. At the later stages of the war the Russian army improved its mobile logistical support so much that its tank units could advance hundreds of miles almost non-stop, sometimes even refueling on the move, and of course relying on the very high technical reliability and simplicity of their vehicles.

The Nazis in WWII had horsedrawn logistics. 5mph tanks advance at a faster pace than horsedrawn wagons.

Blitzkrieg was in fact invented and proven by the western Allies in WWI. The first true use of blitzkrieg was the Battle of Cambrai, by the British, in 1917. It was a "blitz", in every sense of the word.

Historical fact my friend.

[Super_Dave_D]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

The Nazis in WWII had horsedrawn logistics. 5mph tanks advance at a faster pace than horsedrawn wagons.

Blitzkrieg was in fact perfected by the western Allies in WWI. The first true use of blitzkrieg was the Battle of Cambrai, by the British, in 1917. It was a "blitz", in every sense of the word.

Historical fact my friend.

I dont dispute history and YES Cambrai is generally known as the MASS employmemt of tanks but were not talking about a Blitz! Were talking about 4-6 miles and most broke down - LOL hardly what is considered Blitzkreig!

Show me (something other than you) where it is considered to be perfected at Cambrai?

It has NEVER been perfected until this day!! The Germans were crippled by lack of logistics in almost major engagement.

If anyone could be said to have perfected Blitkreig - It was Patton in 1944 but he too had supply problems in the end as well.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Super_Dave_D

I dont dispute history and YES Cambrai is generally known as the MASS employmemt of tanks but were not talking about a Blitz! Were talking about 4-6 miles and most broke down - LOL hardly what is considered Blitzkreig!

Show me (something other than you) where it is considered to be perfected at Cambrai?

It has NEVER been perfected until this day!! The Germans were crippled by lack of logistics in almost major engagement.

If anyone could be said to have perfected Blitkreig - It was Patton in 1944 but he too had supply problems in the end as well.

The 2 divisions of cavalry at Cambrai were to exploit the breakthrough and make the deep push.


"He scheduled the attack for November, even though weather conditions were predictably worsening. Consequently Tank Corps commanders feared that the planned attack would merely serve once again to further undermine the tank's doubtful reputation as an effective attacking weapon.

The attack was duly launched at dawn on the morning of 20 November 1917, with all available tanks advancing across a 10 km front. 476 tanks were accompanied by six infantry and two cavalry divisions (the latter to exploit any breakthrough), plus a further 1,000 guns. 14 newly formed squadrons of the Royal Flying Corps stood by - a forerunner of the blitzkrieg tactics employed to great effect by the German army during the Second World War. Notably the attack was not preceded by a preliminary bombardment, helping to ensure complete surprise."

---------

Cambrai saw massed armor on a compressed front to smash through the German lines; fast, agile cavalry forces to exploit a deep breakthrough once achieved; and massed airpower to support the attack. Part of the reason the tanks did not advance very far was because of the terrain and time of year, and the rest because of the unreliability of the early designs, but that's really ok, because the Cavalry was still the mobile manuever force in all the major armies of the day.

Cambrai was for all intents and purposes the first true use of Blitzkrieg in history, some 23 years before the infamous Nazi Blitz of 1940.

What the nazi's did was to refine the tactic of blitzkrieg, mainly via the addition of a radio in every tank and aircraft. That in and of itself was an absolutely huge advance in warfare.

But it was the British who invented the tactic.

[tabs]

To say one or the other of the above listed battles is more important then another is ludicrous. Each marked a turning point in history, where if it had gone the other way the history of the world would have been writ much differently.

[Super_Dave_D]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

But it was the British who invented the tactic.

Well at least you backed off the term perfected. I agree that they were the first to employ the general tactic. Tanks and aircraft were not advanced enough.

[jyl]

Not the Bulge.