When did you know it was over in a relationship?

[Dueller]

Originally Posted by the

Who is going to pay for their college? I think that's a big issue, because if it is not you, then from here on forward, your relationship with the girls should only be as adults. That will make it a lot easier.

But as a lot of others have alluded to (some more directly than others), there are other issues going on here that you either have chosen to not give details on, or are not aware of.

Let's start with this: Does your wife work? What kind of work, and how many hours per week?

Fair enuff.

Wife and I were going to pay for 1/3, dad/step mom was going to pay for 1/3 and girls were going to work and pay for 1/3. Then that all changed when dad was killed last month. He apparently left them each substantial insurance that will easily cover their college and beyond. Before you jump conclusions I honestly don't think that is a factor in my wife's actions.

The real issue in our relationship are about the family unit. Beleive me, I have done a lot of soul searching about my issues...primarily that I feel not included or way down the totem pole in importance. Some of those feelings are unwarranted. I've worked hard on that. Some are very justified. I've tried to get wife to understand how hurtful it is to not include me in some things while trying to make her understand I don't expect to interfere with her relationship with the kids. I have feelings like I'm being used (largely unjustified but there is some indication that those feelings are valid but not so much on a level to abandon the relationship).

I do have a problem with how I handle anger...I get very frustrated when my wife does not understand my feelings or is dismissive of my concerns. While our arguments are not routinely explosive, argiuing sometimes escalates much too rapidly for both of us. I have a tenedency to go into lawyer mode when we have a disagreement using court room skills to prove mmy point. (This is not uncommon in relationships wilth lawyers))

Wife has a problem with giving me mixed messages when it comes to the kids. I have probably shouldered to much responsibility for kids well being and, while well intentioned, I probably should not have taken my role as steppaerent so seriously.

Wife works very hard and makes substantial if not equal (or more at cash flow shortfall times in my practice) contributions to our expenses. she primarily works nights Tues-Sat and as a result of my need for verylittle sleep I help her on many evenings at her pub. While we are not overly extravagant in our lifestyle we have no financial issues to speak of.

[MFAFF]

Jim,

I am floored by this....see my signature line...I have read your posts about your stepdaughters and your trials and tribulations of having two very beautiful young women to help raise with their mum.

I can relate on a personal level...both past and present. The only 'help' i can give is that you find a counsellor you trust to work out what it is you really want...and if you can bear it make the call to the wife. She may have walked but that part may need to be parked to help the bigger picture. I am no certain from what I have read that the bigger picture for the future is clear to you.

I hope you can both work out what that bigger picture really is for all concerned. It will help you, your wife and the step daughters...this can cause them much damage at this age and in their position.

I hope that you find the strength to work this one out for the best, regardless of whether or not you do stay together.

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

FWIW,

There was a young lady I had interest in many moons ago. She had one child with a man who could NOT have cared less. He did not want anything to do with the child other than using the child to pick up women. I stated the only way I could move into this situation was if I could adopt the child. She refused. I left.

As has been said many a time, you cannot get between a woman and another man's children. You will lose every time.

Paul,

I had a similar conversation in the AF. Captain called me in. Only I was negative for everything, EX was positive for several things. She was still blaming me for giving her stuff. AF was pursuing me for charges. There was a reason I refused to have anything to do with her for the year previous and why I sought a divorce.

[the]

No, I never thought any issues were financial.

With the kids' college (and beyond) being covered, that seems to be a major plus. I highly doubt these girls will ever live at your house again. They will have to answer to you exactly zero in their lives. All of which is a great thing for your relationship with your wife.

I asked about where your wife works because I was interested in seeing if it was in any of the typical "danger" places - law firm, accounting firm, hospital or Drs. office, major corporation. I don't recall seeing pics of your wife, but I have of the daughters, and the looks apple usually doesn't fall far from the tree. Those "danger" places just present a lot of peril for any good looking woman, married or not. **** happens.

This pub situation, I don't know if that's better or worse.

Is there any possibility that she is seeing someone else, or interested in someone else. I ask because her behavior is pretty typical of someone who is. By that, I mean the real and lasting over-reaction to a fairly minor dispute.

Because based on your description of the relationship (great, except for the few issues involving the kids, who everyone knows will soon be on their own and out of the house forever), her actions don't make sense. I'd take a hard look at any guys she had any sort of relationship with, or has ever spoken about more than once.

[Dueller]

The...while I have been cuckolded in two other relationships, the possibility of her being involved with someone else is totally remote.

This fuss comes on the heels of a genuine improvement in our relationship over the past 4 months. we were out of town celebrating our 3rd anniversary this past weekend. We had an absolute wonderful time...romantic get away, great food, dancing, playing in the pool yadadadada. We made a commitment to spend more quality time together because we had such a good time and owed it to each other.

No, I think she is fed up with my angry outbursts. Just as I am fed up with her deception when it comes to the kids. Issues we both need to work on individually and together if the relationship is to survive.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by Dueller

OK...as a practical matter. How would you proceed given an assumption you feel the marriage is worth salvaging?

Give wife time to think about it? Call her? Wait for her to call? Have a family meeting to sort this out? Let them stay gone for the next five weeks before girls leave for college (I mean the girls are enjoying moving in with bf's...they're getting what they want). Have no clue where wife is staying...haven't spoken to her?

As to the circumstances, we had calmed down by the time we got home. Wife packed her bags and said "I'm done." Walked out with nary a comment from me.

Jim

Let's recap:

Lots of problems for many years, including unruly step-daughters and a wife that lies TO YOU and covers up for them.

You have bailed them out financially, emotionally and legally

You finally have a sit down and set some fairly specific rules. These rules, in my opinion, are retarded, or really, the last one. But they are not my children and are not yours. But it is your house.

Have they done anything for you? How is the wife at supporting and doing things to help you when you need help? I thought so. So the whole relationship is one way. A relationship is not 50/50. It is 100% - 100%. You each put in 100%

Kids broke the rules. Wife not only knew, but participated AND lied to you to cover it up. You found out since they are not only rule breakers and liars, they are incompetent at cover up.

You got angry about all, but especially about being lied to by wife.

Wife got angry and then, on her own decision, left, took stuff, took her kids.

End of re-cap.

Question #1

So, except for the small part of getting mad/angry etc, at an appropriate moment, where are you at fault?

Question #2

You are considering going back into this situation for more. Why?

I would think long and hard about this. I seriously would consider personal counseling before re-entering this relationship, and if you do, you must get couples counseling and your wife and children need individual help too.

I am sorry to be a bit harsh here, but I think you need a wake up call. You have given and given and given. And in return you are lied to.

I know she wasn't having an affair, but hear me out here. What kills a relationship with an affair is the lying and the deception, not the sex act. You are getting the lying and the deception, destruction of trust, without the sex act. How is this really any better? How do you expect to trust your wife? She is not trust worthy. The people here who talk about mama and the cubs are deluding themselves. She cannot "protect" her children by lying to you. She is actually hurting her children.

I KNOW what you are going through. I was a step-dad for 7 years with a wife who did the same kinds of things. I was the ONLY stable influence on the girl. 1 year after splitting with my wife, her daughter had left college (1/2 way through freshman year) and moved in with boyfriend who was 28, she was 18. All I could do was shake my head. I believe she ended up pregnant.

And, hey, my big rule was easier...Don't chew food with your mouth open. She sometimes hated me for it.

[the]

For some reason I thought you were married for much longer than 3 years. 3 years . . . you should still be well in the "honeymoon phase," the fact that you have spent the last 4 months "improving" a 3 year marriage is a little troubling, because I will assume you had at least a few bad months prior to that which needed improvement. So, at least to this 20 year veteran, your marriage has basically been rocky from the start.

But, I think you are really the only one here who knows if the marriage has a reasonable chance of being saved. No one here even comes close to knowing the details, and it is all from one side.

If you think it can be saved, I still think you need to be the one to initiate it. If it is a good relationship, if you give up a little, she'll likely do the same and you can try to move on. I think when you do start up a dialog, you'd be well served to focus on the future, not the past, since your past family situation is now over.

[craigster59]

Originally Posted by Dueller

.....No, I think she is fed up with my angry outbursts

I was going to bring this up, you had talked before about anger issues. If she and the kids were not brought up or are not used to being around someone who is "animated" and highly vocal in their outbursts, it can be extremely upsetting and threatening for them to be in that kind of environment. Being a lawyer it may seem "par for the course" but to others it makes co-habitating downright miserable.

Best of luck Jim, I know you're a good guy and will do what you think is best. Maybe go out and get a drink, don't you know someone who owns a bar?

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Jim,

I read the rest of the posts. IMHO, marriages hinge on trust. When an egregious, unforgivable event completely undermines that trust you have to act on what is best for your well being. Again, this is only my opinion, what is your definition of egregious and what is the action you are willing to take?

I am rather hot tempered myself. Lack of fidelity and a desire to experiment with drugs is why I kicked my first wife to the curb. Both events were beyond my ability to forgive.

None of us are going to be able to answer a question that is wholly personal. We can give advice, and much has been given. We are all over the place with our advice but such is life. Your truth will never be ours.

Again, this is only my opinion. You want to have a loving relationship with your chosen spouse and you wish to extend your love to her children. Your love includes rules to help them get through life a bit more easily, rather, with less stress and fewer troubles as life goes on. I truly believe your wife is failing the both of you by being too lenient on her daughters so as to gain their love through friendship. I believe you are failing both of you by losing your temper.

It would seem an apology would be in order for losing your temper. An apology post haste. Get it off your chest if it is bothering you. If you are not bothered don't act. The longer you wait to act, the sooner your relationship will end, IMHO.

I also feel your wife owes you an apology for undermining your authority and, this is the BIG ONE in my mind, deceiving you!

The girls will come around in a decade or so...

I wish you the best of luck! I always enjoy your posts and hope this all works out best for your entire family!

A simple Prayer:

Direct us, O Lord, in all our doings with thy most gracious favour, and further us with thy continual help; that in all our works begun, continued, and ended in thee, we may glorify thy holy Name, and finally, by thy mercy, obtain everlasting life; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen (Book of Common Prayer)

[Dueller]

James..pretty accurate recap. To clarify:

I would not characterize dtrs as unruly. They're 18 going on 29. They want to be grown and independent though admittedly sometimes inapproprately and immmaturely.

Wouldn't really call it bailing them out financially, emotionally legally. More of being supportive. Maybe just semantics.

Why are the rules retarded? Should they just be allowed to do whatever they want? As to being allowed to stay at bf's I disagree with that not on a moral issue but rather I think allowing a quasi-living together relationship at such a young age creates unhealthy emotional dependence. In other words, while sexual activity is to be expected at theiur age, getting into the habit of having breakfast with your BF is something they are not yet equpped to handle emotionally.

I acquiesced to that rule even tho I fundamentally disagreed with the arrangement because it was a battle I could not win. They are her kids, not biologically mine.

in many ways my wife is very supportive. I have no doubt she loves me deeply. the kids...well they're kids with their own agendas. Not malevolent...just typical teenage selfishness.

IMO my anger was justified. My outburst was over the top.

Going back for more? That is my quandry. In some ways I think wife and I are capable of having a wonderful relationship even with the kids in the mix. When we work as a team with regard to the kids we do fine...even when we disagree and I have to defer to her calls. More often than not we agree on a course of action. Its when she defends them or covers for them unrealistically that I lose it.

You make a lot of good points. Thanks.

[KaptKaos]

Jim,

I wish you luck.

IMO, since she left, she's the one that needs to come back. You calling her back would tell her that you are willing to accept this behavior. The waiting is the hard part.

I hope it works out.

[Oh Haha]

Jim, being an "anger sensitive" person myself I understand the outburst. Trust me, I had my share of them in the first marriage.

Our problems were not so much with the stepdaughter but more of trust issues with my wife. The stepdaughter just added fuel to the fire.

We had many discussions over behavior regarding the girl. As Moses pointed out, never get between the Mama bear and her cub(s). I tried and lost every time.

What about some professional help? It may be interesting for you to hear their side of how they see the picture.

I truly wish you the best but sometimes the hardest path is the best path in life.

Had I not gone through the he!! that was my first marriage, I would not know what a true partnership can be, as in with my current wife.

[Rick Lee]

Why does anyone think these daughters are out of the house forever? I think my folks' problems with my sister didn't start until her second or third year of college. Once she failed out many tens of thousands of my folks' dollars later, she came back to live with my folks to work and save up money to move to TX. Dueller's girls might not finish college. My sister was pretty good in prep school, couldn't handle college though.

Dueller, I don't have any kids and haven't been in your shoes at all. But if you think these girls are wild now, wait til you see them after they've really been free for a semester at college. Hell, I couldn't wait to get back to school after I was home during a break. I was pretty well behaved at home, got along well with my folks and I still couldn't stand to live under their roof for more than a few days. I honestly think your pain with those girls is just starting. They have more college ahead of them than you have years of marriage with their mom behind you.

[Dueller]

Originally Posted by the

For some reason I thought you were married for much longer than 3 years. 3 years . . . you should still be well in the "honeymoon phase," the fact that you have spent the last 4 months "improving" a 3 year marriage is a little troubling, because I will assume you had at least a few bad months prior to that which needed improvement. So, at least to this 20 year veteran, your marriage has basically been rocky from the start.

But, I think you are really the only one here who knows if the marriage has a reasonable chance of being saved. No one here even comes close to knowing the details, and it is all from one side.

If you think it can be saved, I still think you need to be the one to initiate it. If it is a good relationship, if you give up a little, she'll likely do the same and you can try to move on. I think when you do start up a dialog, you'd be well served to focus on the future, not the past, since your past family situation is now over.

Yup, 3 years. But we've been together for six years.

Funny you should mention the honeymoon phase. Without going into details, the children were not initially going to live with us when we first got married. essentially they were going to live with paternal grandmother in the adjacent town for school purposes.

So we married and lived in my bachelor pad. Within a month or two stepson moved in with us which was a good idea because he needed some male contact. Not any kind of trouble...he was just at an age where he needed to be able to do guy things grandmother could not do. Stepson and I developed a wonderful relationship. He was at an age where he wanted to learn to hunt and fish and work on cars and ride motorcycles etc etc etc. We went to hunter safety togehter. I bought him his first gun. I was in the tree stand with him when he shot his first deer. I witnessed his first motorcycle spill. yadadadaaa. Mom deferred to me on a lot of things. She recognized we bonded in a way he hadn't with his bio dad.

About 6 months later one of the step dtrs moved in with us due to a falling out with grandmother. We were really cramped in the bachelor pad. We had to make her move back in with Grandma after 4-5 weeks with the promise we would be buying a bigger house and she was welcome to come live with us.

Some 4 months later, stepson left for college and both girls immediately moved into the bachelor pad spare bedroom son vacated. It was crowded but we made do until we purchased a bigger home...limited to the location because of the school zone situation required by girls liivng with us.

While the bigger house solved some of the tensions of living in close quarters, the issues we're dealing with now developed. So the honeymoon was pushed aside in a hurry.



Maybe not really relevant, but when told their father died a month ago, stepson lost it at grandmother's house and punched holes in the wall of her house and broke a window. while they were all in California attending the funeral, I went to grandmother's house and repaired everything so she wouldn't have to deal with it on their return. The following is verbatim note I received from their paternal grandmother:

Dear Jim

Is there anything you can't do? You are a thoughtful and generous man, with your time and money. I hope Marie and the kids know how lucky they are! I'm pretty lucky myself; you have been helpful to me many times and I truly appreciate you.

You just seem to have that "know how" about you which is a wonderful trait. But more than that, you don't mind sharing it. Jim, I appreciate you more than you know. Thanks for helping look after the kids.

Love,
Sara

So some folks don't think I'm an ogre.

[TGTIW]

Quick question, and I mean this honestly, do you find that you respond with as much anger when the disagreements with your wife do not involve the daughters?

[the]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Why does anyone think these daughters are out of the house forever? I think my folks' problems with my sister didn't start until her second or third year of college. Once she failed out many tens of thousands of my folks' dollars later, she came back to live with my folks to work and save up money to move to TX. Dueller's girls might not finish college. My sister was pretty good in prep school, couldn't handle college though.

Because (1) they clearly have the personalities to want to live on their own, and (2) they have the monetary means to do so.

[the]

And (3) they like to play house, and with their looks will have no problem finding many guys to play it with.

[Dueller]

Originally Posted by TGTIW

Quick question, and I mean this honestly, do you find that you respond with as much anger when the disagreements with your wife do not involve the daughters?

Nope. This is pretty much the only real source of friction despite my efforts to pull back.

[Rikao4]

D, your lady has walked at least twice...
when my Lady says I got your back...
I need not worry about getting stabbed..
you...
everytime things blow due to her covering for /with the girls..
and you call her / them on it..it's
'I'm leaving ' ... I'm done'
these games may work well in HS...
but that was yrs ago ....wasn't it

Rika

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by Rikao4

D, your lady has walked at least twice...
when my Lady says I got your back...
I need not worry about getting stabbed..
you...
everytime things blow due to her covering for /with the girls..
and you call her / them on it..it's
'I'm leaving ' ... I'm done'
these games may work well in HS...
but that was yrs ago ....wasn't it

Rika

well said