Pilot should NOT have been in the Left Seat!

[Seahawk]

I try to never fly commuters...unless it is absolutely required. I prefer to rent a car from the closest major AP and hoof it.

As a pilot I am acutely aware that piloting skills, given certain ability, reside between the ears...most pilot-error accidents can be traced to a relatively small number of contributing factors: lack of rest, trouble at home, birth of a child, buying or selling a home, etc. This would include money woes.

I made 15k a year in 1976 as a river guide...

[jyl]

Maybe some government regulation is needed here. The free market does not appear to be producing the result that everyone on this thread claims to want (passenger airline pilots who are paid a sensible wage).

In general, the airline industry seems like a self destructive one. I read that the industry, at least in the US, has lost money on a cumulative basis since inception. And it certainly has lost a ton of money in the decades since deregulation.

What do you guys say? Can you think of a regulation that would solve the $16K pilot "problem" and that you would support?

[rattlsnak]

they are thinking of raising the entry limits to ATP standards (more hours) which would help with exp., but not with pay...

Some years ago I left an $80,000 a year job to go to a regional to make $18,000 the first year. Of course, I was going to upgrade to CPT in 18 months, fly for 2-3 years as PIC, then get hired by a major, then CPT there after a few more years making the big coin. Six years later I was still an FO at the regional and two years later after upgrading, finally left the airlines for the Fracs where the pay is much better, but the upgrade is still nowhere in sight.

The flying part of the job is awesome, but the industry just plain SUX.... Its amazing what people go through just to fly, like commuting, crash pads, living out of suitcases, unbelievable things... The days of "catch me if you can" are long over...

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

I try to never fly commuters...unless it is absolutely required. I prefer to rent a car from the closest major AP and hoof it.

A.

Absolutely. And internationally we fly only airlines that emphasize quality rather than price (Lufthansa. British. Cathay Pacific. Singapore.), that pay their people well and fly reasonably new equipment.

I've flown on lots of bucket airlines in the third world, and have some horror stories to tell. (Did you know Egypt Air used to have a standing room section in the back of their DC 9's flying between Cairo and Aswan? You had to hang on to a strap, like on a bus!)

At a certain age you realize that life is too short for this kind of crap.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by jyl

Maybe some government regulation is needed here.

What do you guys say? Can you think of a regulation that would solve the $16K pilot "problem" and that you would support?

Excuse me? We need more Govt in our lives like we need more holes in our head! We have IMHO far too much as it is today.

Only regulation needed is for the public to find out what people are getting paid, and for them to beat feet to other airlines with more experienced crew who are getting paid a "living wage" that the others do not have.

You guys on the right and left coast can have the Govt run your lives all you want, but the rest of us in the remaining 45 states do not need it.

Joe A

[jyl]

After the Colgan crash, people know how badly these pilots are paid. Do you see passengers switching to other airlines, or regionals raising pay levels? If not, then how will the problem be fixed, or will it continue?

The airline industry does not seem to fix itself on its own, in some respects.

[Joeaksa]

You want govt regulation, please make it in 5-7 years after I retire.

[air-cool-me]

]"carrot dangling" - particularly to the young hotshot guys with the big egos. They all want to be "shiny jet" guys who want to brag to their buddies about flying an EMB or an RJ,

You are an Idiot.

I honestly think it's one of the toughest and grittiest industries to make a living in ......... very fortunate individual to have been touched by it.........

.

Just fnished a 15.5 hour day and will only get paid for 7.5 of it. This is the last day of a 4 day trip. Oh and I was already canned weeks ago. I would have to agree that days like this fall under that category.


Rest rules should be Door to Door not 45min before a flight to 15min after. I am not resting while waiting on the curb at the airport... Moving to requiring an ATP wont improve pay.. I am for the idea though.

If an airline advertised slightly higher prices so they could hire the very best crews, I'd bet a significant % of the population would support that.

I think most people just click "sort buy cheapest" on travelocity and dont give a ****...

Our bargain culture is killing many things.. including this industry.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Joe, you beat me to it.

Aviation has so many regulations and restrictions and oversights as it is today it's ridiculous. Just getting from takeoff to touchdown without breaking a rule and violating yourself is a knife-edge walk. It's very tricky business as you know. I used to spend more time worrying about breaking some stupid rule than about weather, procedures, etc. when I was flying commercially. It's nerve-wracking.

Also it should be pointed out that there are plenty of good pilots out there - even ones with relatively low total time. However there is the question of experience. Inexperience in the right seat I can tolerate to a certain extent, as it will come in time (and the right seat is supposed to be where you GET your experience, under the watchful eye of an experienced captain). Outright incompetence in the left seat I cannot. There is absolutely NO excuse for someone busting FIVE checkrides being allowed to fly revenue 121 operations. No way. I've always been of the belief if you fail even ONE at the commercial or ATP level, your career is basically over. Evidently not in this case. Wonder how much of a role the union played in keeping this joker around...

[jyl]

None of you "no more regulation" guys are explaining why the airline industry, left to its own devices, is going to pay young pilots more.

You've been expressing your outrage at how poorly regional airline pilots are paid. But you don't seem to be coming up with a solution.

I asked if some sort of regulation would be a solution. You say you don't want more regulation. So, what is your solution?

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Who's outraged?

It's simply a consequence of the state of the industry and the absurdly low fares that airlines charge. Eventually it will sort itself out as the airlines blow up and/or consume one another and are able to charge fares that are actually reasonable and not at/below actual operating costs.

Another factor is the shift to lower-capacity RJs from traditional, larger-capacity aircraft on hub-to-hub routes. This trend is well-documented over the last 10-15 years. Fewer revenue seat-miles per flight leg means tighter cost/profit margins. This is one way Southwest can do what they do - you can pack a lot more people onto a 737 and afford to pay your pilots/crews/maintenance guys reasonable salaries and still charge very low fares - because you're not necessarily losing your shirt or budgeting to the last dime on every single leg. They're also exceedingly good at hedging their fuel prices, which most airlines (particularly regionals) are not.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

FWIW, we used to have regulation in the form of the CAB (remember them?) It was yet another example of government meddling that made a ridiculous bloated bureaucratic nightmare of an industry. You really want THAT again?

[widebody911]

The free market is the way to go.

If you buy a crappy PC or car, you know not to buy another one from that company again (ie Dell or GM) and you tell your friends about your experience. If you have a really crappy flight experience, your friends will discuss how bad airline XYZ is (at your wake) and they'll stop flying with that carrier.

And there's a bright side: the bad pilots will 'darwin out' of the system, leaving the better pilots, who will train the new crop. And by busting up so many airplanes, Boeing, AirBus, etc will be very busy building new ones, which in turn enhances their bottom line..

What's not to like?

[air-cool-me]

You've been expressing your outrage at how poorly regional airline pilots are paid. But you don't seem to be coming up with a solution.

national seniority list.

it would allow you to "shop around" your skills and leave a ****ty employer..

[jyl]

Not outraged? Hmm, you and others certainly sounded outraged before. So, the $16K regional jet pilot is in fact not something to be alarmed about?

I've been hearing for decades that the airline industry will "sort itself out". It has not happened. By many measures (industry profitability, industry pay, delays, customer experience, etc) this industry has gotten steadily worse over the past couple decades. I do not see why there is a good reason to predict that "eventually" will be soon enough.

I don't know the details of the CAB era. But I thought airline travel was actually better, for the customers anyway, pre-1978. I think it was better for the pilots too, at least they had pensions and better pay.

[rattlsnak]

Originally Posted by jyl

None of you "no more regulation" guys are explaining why the airline industry, left to its own devices, is going to pay young pilots more.

You've been expressing your outrage at how poorly regional airline pilots are paid. But you don't seem to be coming up with a solution.

I asked if some sort of regulation would be a solution. You say you don't want more regulation. So, what is your solution?

There is no solution. The point you're missing, is that there are pilots LINED UP who would fly for free to get their foot in the door or have SJS. (shiny jet syndrome). It's AFTER they get in that they gripe and complain about pay/conditions etc. (certainly not everyone, but they all know the deal before the apply) But it's the only way to get your foot in the door to one day get to the high paying jobs, even though those are becoming a thing of the past also.

Think of it in another industry. What if you love to race cars and you want to drive for Porsche one day and you have a chance to drive for a small race team that will build your seat time and stats. After you gain exp, you can then drive for the factory. Would take that job for a small amount of pay? Would you do it free to simply have the chance to drive??


The point is, unless you get to a point where there are not enough pilots to fill seats, or enough pilots willing to take the job for the low pay, you are at the mercy of the employer.

air cool is correct. A national senoirity list might work, but obviously no way that would ever happen. If it ever did, im sure all the employers would align their pay to be the same anyway.

[rick-l]

Originally Posted by jyl

Not outraged? Hmm, you and others certainly sounded outraged before. So, the $16K regional jet pilot is in fact not something to be alarmed about?

How come no ones mentions the military route which doesn't pay much better?

What about the artificial economics that made regional jets possible?

In St Louis ex TWA - AA hub about all you can fly is a regional.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by rattlsnak

There is no solution. The point you're missing, is that there are pilots LINED UP who would fly for free to get their foot in the door or have SJS. (shiny jet syndrome). It's AFTER they get in that they gripe and complain about pay/conditions etc. (certainly not everyone, but they all know the deal before the apply) But it's the only way to get your foot in the door to one day get to the high paying jobs, even though those are becoming a thing of the past also.

Okay, so the free market has NO solution for the $16,000 airline pilot problem.

So, the next question is, is this enough of a problem that it merits some sort of minimum wage for airline pilots? For example, that the guy/gal who holds fifty lives in his hands must make at least $30K, or 40K?

Can the problem be handled with some other form of regulation? For example, regulations concerning strict rest, skill, training, etc requirements and strict government enforcement of same? It's not actually a problem that the pilot is below the poverty line, as long as we're positive that he is well-rested, well-trained, not working a second job, not racked by financial stresses, etc?

Or, finally, is the $16,000 pilot actually not a problem after all, so that all the hand-wringing in this and prior threads is all misguided? If young guys want to fly shiny jets for roughly minimum wage "all in", that's their problem, no reason for passengers to care?

It seems to me that one of the preceding four paragraphs has to apply.
(1) Solve problem with no regulation, i.e. free market
(2) Solve problem with regulation - minimum wage
(3) solve problem with regulation - other than minimum wage
(4) there is no problem to solve.

Well, there is always:
(5) there is a problem and we'll ignore it.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by rick-l

How come no ones mentions the military route which doesn't pay much better?

What about the artificial economics that made regional jets possible?

In St Louis ex TWA - AA hub about all you can fly is a regional.

What do you mean by artificial economics?

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by rick-l

How come no ones mentions the military route which doesn't pay much better?

What are you talking about...an O-1 makes 30k in base pay, before housing allowance (adjusted for location, which on average equals 15K a year) flight pay (another 4k per year to start) and tax advantages.

So, brand new O-1 in flight school makes almost 50K a year while having more fun than you can imagine.