Chevy Volt - $40,000 - Thanks UAW

Chocaholic · 10-06-2009, 04:38 PM

Economy at any price. GM (Government Motors) doesn't have a chance if they're betting their union controlled asses on this. Heck...gas is 2 bucks a gallon. If it weren't a UAW built car, it would cost 30% less and might actually be competitive. It's almost hard to watch. Almost. . .

kaisen · 10-06-2009, 04:43 PM

Where did you verify a $40K MSRP?

HardDrive · 10-06-2009, 04:53 PM

Don't you end up getting like $6500 off the sticker because of government subsidies?

carambola · carambola's Garage

it takes a union plant 15 manhours to build a car. just because i'm not good at math, let's just say a UAW worker gets $100 per hour. that's $1500.
you really have a problem with what makes that car $38,500, not the $1500 it takes to assemble that car.

Gogar · 10-06-2009, 05:54 PM

It takes me 45 seconds to install an $20,000 OEM targa top.

jyl · jyl's Garage

Should "UAW" really be the kneejerk answer for everything that is wrong with Detroit? They are the answer for a lot of it, but not all of it.

island911 · 10-06-2009, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carambola

it takes a union plant 15 manhours to build a car. just because i'm not good at math, let's just say a UAW worker gets $100 per hour. that's $1500.
you really have a problem with what makes that car $38,500, not the $1500 it takes to assemble that car.

You forgot the cost of the retired UAW workers, and for every hour that ticks by, regardless of how many cars are built.

carambola · carambola's Garage

the cost of the retirees is built into that $100 per hour (i think it's closer to $70 per hour) with the guy on the line making less then $30. i think i read that toyota pays $60 per hour.

strupgolf · 10-06-2009, 06:50 PM

Hell, the chariman of GM, whickever one it was, said it would be close to $40,000. And it DOES NOT get 240 MPG.

porsche4life · porsche4life's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by carambola

it takes a union plant 15 manhours to build a car. just because i'm not good at math, let's just say a UAW worker gets $100 per hour. that's $1500.
you really have a problem with what makes that car $38,500, not the $1500 it takes to assemble that car.

It takes a few more than 1 person to build a car....

onewhippedpuppy · 10-06-2009, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaisen

Where did you verify a $40K MSRP?

Every press release I've read projects a $40k price. No doubt that's not an exact number, but I doubt it will be $20k to compete with the Prius and Insight hybrids.

UAW is partially to blame, but you also have to wonder what management was thinking. It's essentially a $40k economy car. Cool technology, but worthless if consumers won't pay the price.

stomachmonkey · 10-06-2009, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by porsche4life

It takes a few more than 1 person to build a car....

His math is man hours.

1 guy at $100 ph x's 15 hours = $1500

2 guys at $100 ph x's 7.5 hours each = $1500

3 guys at $100 ph x's 5 hours each = $1500

....

....

...

15 guys at at $100 ph x's 1 hour each = $1500

Schumi · 10-06-2009, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jyl

Should "UAW" really be the kneejerk answer for everything that is wrong with Detroit? They are the answer for a lot of it, but not all of it.

Hmmm... lemme think about it.... n..naa.... ee.... yep.. yes it is the answer.

Two of my best mates were engineers who got put on lines as non-UAW managers to ensure Joe-Bob was putting the cars together right. The UAW guys made every day of their lives their absolute hell, didn't follow instructions worth s***, and were making 2 times as much as my engineer friends were after benefits. And yet would always complain about every little thing, and not heed anything from my friends who were technically their superiors, but they weren't UAW managers, they were overseeing engineers, so they didn't get the time of day from the workers. Thus cars continued to roll off the line with tons and tons of problems.

porsche4life · porsche4life's Garage

Exactly. These UAW pricks hide behind the Union and get away with BS and robbing a company blind.

Tobra · Tobra's Garage

How about if you ran the generator part of it on propane instead of gasoline? Doesn't propane burn cleaner? There is lot of infrastructure for this in place, and we are sitting on a lot of it, relative to petroleum anyway.

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

Shedding the UAW would make GM and Chrysler competitive (assuming they don't ressurect the ghosts of idiot managers past - like from the 1970s). Without that, I doubt either company is really going to survive long-term. It's just prolonging the agony. FWIW I think eventually Ford will succumb to the realities of being undercut at every turn too. They've done a lot of things up to now, but eventually they too will be crushed by their staggering pension obligations. They're on borrowed time.

1990C4S · 10-06-2009, 08:21 PM

Fifteen hours is a bit low, I think 20 is more typical. Regardless, the UAW's argument that they could work for free and Ford/GM/Chrysler wouldn't be competitive has some merit.

The problems run much deeper.

jyl · jyl's Garage

Ford's liability for pensions is something like $43Bn and it has something like $37Bn in pension plan assets. That was as of end 2008, assuming they didn't bail out of their investments the plan liabilities and assets might be more or less matched now. Ford's liability for retiree medical is something like $17Bn owed to the VEBA trust, half of which Ford can pay in stock if it chooses. Ford's annual pension expense is roughly $1Bn. Ford's annual revenue (in 2008, not a banner year) was about $145Bn. So, looking at the relative size of these numbers, Ford doesn't seem to be saddled with unmanageable pension or medical obligations. If they make good cars that sell well and keep direct costs under control, Ford can make a heck of a lot of money. Well, the US auto market also needs to be better than 10MM units. Which it will be. Replacement rate is roughly 14MM.

Of course, it would be even better if Ford could jettison all of it's pension and medical liabilities, and dump those old people on Social Security and Medicare. I'd buy more stock. It's all about corporate profits, baby.

Quote:

Shedding the UAW would make GM and Chrysler competitive (assuming they don't ressurect the ghosts of idiot managers past - like from the 1970s). Without that, I doubt either company is really going to survive long-term. It's just prolonging the agony. FWIW I think eventually Ford will succumb to the realities of being undercut at every turn too. They've done a lot of things up to now, but eventually they too will be crushed by their staggering pension obligations. They're on borrowed time.

DanielDudley · 10-07-2009, 02:22 AM

GM can do anything it wants to do. GM doesn't want to build electric cars, and has shown this in the past. GM is a very sick and bloated company. UAW may be part of that, but only a part. If we look back in time, Unions were only brought about as a reaction to abusive business practices. GM, unlike a lot of other companies, is still whack.

strupgolf · 10-07-2009, 04:49 AM

According to GM, Saturn is shutting down. Ok, but they said not a single layoff would result because of it. Do the math, 1 guy X 100 = $1500.00 producing something. 10,000 x $100 ====== millions and millions = producing nothing. I dont know where they are going to put them, because they have a oversupply now, both in cars and workers.