Marriage: when is enough enough?

[Nathans_Dad]

I understand your point Nostatic, I just disagree with it.

I think that you are free to consider yourself first all the way up to the point where you choose to have children. After that point your primary mission in life is to do everything in your power to raise those kids to be productive members of society.

I think a major step towards that goal for the kids is growing up with a two parent family. If that means battening down the hatches and doing the hard work it takes to rediscover respect and even love for your wife, then that is what it means.

I do not see love as something you fall into. I see it as a decision you make and something you work at every day. If you can fall into love, you can fall out of it too. Relationships take work, all too often in our society people just throw in the towel because they are tired of the status quo. They hit middle age, start to wonder about their mortality and all hell breaks loose.

It's not a coincidence that divorces are very common in the late 30s and early 40s. In the last year, I have seen my brother in law get divorced by his wife and two good friends split up as well. In none of the cases was the relationship unrepairable.

[72doug2,2S]

15 years married last month to my first wife and I still think marriage is a great institution. There were and are times when I become selfish and that is a problem for the marriage. Sometimes the hardest thing to do is love your wife when she is unlovable, but I find that it is the only way through the tough times.

We are both committed and neither of us fall for all this happiness crap. Sometimes we're happy and sometimes not, but "happiness" wasn't in the wedding vows. We have three kids that bring about a whole other dimension, challenges, and pride. Some things are worth the investment.

Now if it is truly toxic, adultery, or one party just wants out, there may be little left to save. It takes two to work it out. Your job is to love her and let her know it even when it seems wrong. Her job is to respect you no matter how flippin mad you are. If you both of keep that formula unconditionally it is amazing what you will overcome. A trip might be a great way to test the marriage.

Ever watch the film Fireproof? There is a spiritual connection in marriage to your wife.

[on2wheels52]

"I have always thought that every woman should marry, and no man."
Benjamin Disraeli

[imcarthur]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

It's not a coincidence that divorces are very common in the late 30s and early 40s.

No, it is not coincidence. A lot is age related. Late 30s/early 40s is a tough time for many women. Their peak desirability years are disappearing. It’s now or never. Their fertility is disappearing too. Another huge psychological blow. Their kids are typically not babes in arms anymore so that raw need is reduced. And to top it off, they often have a boring spouse who completely takes them for granted. Call it the spin-cycle of female adulthood. This is usually pre-post-menopausal so they have that joy to look forward to btw.

The male version is 10 years later.

Ian

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

I understand your point Nostatic, I just disagree with it.

I think that you are free to consider yourself first all the way up to the point where you choose to have children. After that point your primary mission in life is to do everything in your power to raise those kids to be productive members of society.

I think a major step towards that goal for the kids is growing up with a two parent family. If that means battening down the hatches and doing the hard work it takes to rediscover respect and even love for your wife, then that is what it means.

I do not see love as something you fall into. I see it as a decision you make and something you work at every day. If you can fall into love, you can fall out of it too. Relationships take work, all too often in our society people just throw in the towel because they are tired of the status quo. They hit middle age, start to wonder about their mortality and all hell breaks loose.

It's not a coincidence that divorces are very common in the late 30s and early 40s. In the last year, I have seen my brother in law get divorced by his wife and two good friends split up as well. In none of the cases was the relationship unrepairable.

We agree to disagree on some point, on others we agree. But another thing that you fail to mention is that people can grow as they age and mature. And sometimes they "do the hard work" to sort out issues only to realize that their choice of a partner was fundamentally flawed. At this point a person has a few choices. They can "suck it up" and stay in the relationship "for the kids." (and btw how long does that have to go - until they are 18? 25?). Or they can move on while keeping the kids a primary priority.

I think where we fundamentally disagree is on the "2 parents in the house" concept. While I agree that can be nice, the reality is that I know that other situations can function quite well. And in fact can be superior to a traditional "married with children" home where one or more of the partners is seriously unhappy or has moved to a different place in life.

I still talk to my ex on a daily basis and we get along quite well. I see my son all the time. I could have stayed but in my best estimation I made the best choice for myself *and my son*. While the relationship is great, it is that way due to hard work and the fact that we don't live in the same house. That may sound crazy to you but you haven't experienced it. There is a tipping point for everything in life. Knowing when you are approaching that and your options is key.

Parents are best spending their time and effort to prepare their kids to leave. But they also better remember that they eventually will leave. My life changed for ever when I became a parent. But my life did not end.

[Nathans_Dad]

Nostatic I agree that there are situations where a split home can work. My point is that it is not the optimal situation. Is a split home better than one with both parents who cannot stand each other and use the kids against one another? Yes.

I guess I just don't get the "fundamentally flawed" thing. How fundamentally flawed can you be? People learn to love and respect each other all the time. Obviously both people in a marriage change and grow during the relationship. How does someone change so much that you no longer can find anything to love in them? If your wife is a manipulative beotch who verbally abuses you all the time...wasn't she that way when you were dating?

Everyone has flaws. My wife and I dated for 3 years prior to getting married. She often asked me how long we were going to have to date before I would decide whether she was the one I wanted to marry. I told her that I only was getting married once in my life so I was going to make sure she was the right one. I would rather spend 3 years dating up front than spend a lifetime in a marriage to the wrong person. Once we agreed to get married we both understood up front that this was a one way ticket.

I know most people think the same thing when they get married, but do they REALLY believe it? I think in today's world the answer is no. In the back of their minds they know they still have a way out. If it gets too tough they can just say they aren't happy anymore and move on. I think if people took marriage more seriously up front they wouldn't be so quick to get out of it.

Again all these comments are not made to anyone in particular, just talking in the more general societal sense.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

I guess I just don't get the "fundamentally flawed" thing. How fundamentally flawed can you be? People learn to love and respect each other all the time. Obviously both people in a marriage change and grow during the relationship. How does someone change so much that you no longer can find anything to love in them? If your wife is a manipulative beotch who verbally abuses you all the time...wasn't she that way when you were dating?.

Speaking hypothetically of course, the answer to the last answer can be "yes." The reality is that people choose a mate based on a variety of criteria. To the extent that someone is screwed up psychologically, they will pick someone who scratches that itch. Where you run into a problem is when one person starts getting healthy, realizes the problem, and the other person doesn't or refuses to or can't change. At that point, does the person who has gotten healthy regress and go back to the old unhealthy person, suck it up and hang around "for the kids", or investigate alternatives?

I agree that many take the path of least resistance and aren't willing to do the work or admit their own part in the problem (and there are ALWAYS two sides to the problems). But in some cases, one spouse will do the work and the other won't. Or both will do the work and they come to realize that it just isn't right.

[bivenator]

Nostatic and Nathan's Dad, you two dudes are smart and make excellent points. Its almost like the yin and yang arguments that I have in my head regarding my marriage.
We are in counseling again and continue to work to make a mess of a marriage more tolerable. If it weren't for the most precious little girl sleeping down the hall, I would be the hell outta here.
Doug, I saw Fireproof. That movie made the man out to be the bad guy and the woman the helpless victim of a womanizer.
Good luck vipergruen, I sincerely mean it.

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Speaking hypothetically of course, the answer to the last answer can be "yes." The reality is that people choose a mate based on a variety of criteria. To the extent that someone is screwed up psychologically, they will pick someone who scratches that itch. Where you run into a problem is when one person starts getting healthy, realizes the problem, and the other person doesn't or refuses to or can't change. At that point, does the person who has gotten healthy regress and go back to the old unhealthy person, suck it up and hang around "for the kids", or investigate alternatives?

I agree that many take the path of least resistance and aren't willing to do the work or admit their own part in the problem (and there are ALWAYS two sides to the problems). But in some cases, one spouse will do the work and the other won't. Or both will do the work and they come to realize that it just isn't right.

Ok, well I guess there is the issue. I would say that someone who is screwed up psychologically shouldn't be getting married and having kids in the first place. I would say fix your psychological issues and THEN find a life partner.

[elwood-914]

I thought I would be married for life
But now I am glad she is gone. I miss the kids but they are grown and gone.
I haven't had an argument in this house for 10 years

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

Ok, well I guess there is the issue. I would say that someone who is screwed up psychologically shouldn't be getting married and having kids in the first place. I would say fix your psychological issues and THEN find a life partner.

Rick, if you're together enough to have been able to do that then more power to you. Frankly I think that the vast majority of people who get married don't fix themselves first. In fact, that often is the driver of the relationship - the partner will make things better.

[Nathans_Dad]

If you are looking for the partner to fix your issues...

There's your problem then, eh?

[Danny_Ocean]

Perpetual bachelor for this very reason...

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by Nathans_Dad

If you are looking for the partner to fix your issues...

There's your problem then, eh?

Rick, what percentage of people say/think, "I want to find someone who makes me happy"?

Like I said, I think you're in the minority. Most people aren't very self-aware of self-actualized. But many either think they are or don't think at all.

[Nathans_Dad]

Agree 100%. That's the whole problem.

Again, it all goes back to the degradation of our society. It used to be the norm to stand on your own two feet and make your own way in the world. Now everyone needs someone else or a substance (prescription or otherwise) to get by.

It's all related. People today figure that nothing is their own fault. If you are messed up psychologically, well then by golly you need to find someone ELSE to fix you. If that doesn't work, just divorce em and move on.

We have people in this country who have bought houses for nothing down, paying interest only. They run up credit card bills like there is no tomorrow. Then when the chickens come home, they look to someone ELSE to fix the problem and the government is all too happy to oblige.

Why would you expect their marriages to be any different?

[Burnin' oil]

All I know is that relationship problems really suck AND that Kevin's comments make me laugh because I know there are people reading them that think he is joking.

[billwagnon]

Again, it all goes back to the degradation of our society. It used to be the norm to stand on your own two feet and make your own way in the world. Now everyone needs someone else or a substance (prescription or otherwise) to get by.

everyone?

Perceiving the whole world is out to get you takes an awful lot of energy.

The pre-1960s American culture would have been perfect (except perhaps for the cultural repression and strict gender & race roles and communist witch hunts and threat of nuclear annihilation). Perhaps pre-1920s era would have treated someone of your class better...you're nearly 100 years out of date!

[Vipergrün]

Thanks you all for your replies. Lots to consider for sure. Time to ponder life.

[Nathans_Dad]

Ok, maybe not everyone...

Just most people, lol.

[Jeff Alton]

Been there.... Best thing I ever did. My son was 2 at the time, he is now 7. We have the best relationship, probably better than if we stayed together and weren't getting along. I have him 50% of the time and I pattern my social life around the time we are together. Tuck him in and read stories and play "favourite part of the day" every night he is here. When he is with mom we talk on the phone and/or I stop by school to see him....

Does it suck to not see him everyday? you bet, but given the cards that we were dealt, we made a good hand.

I get along fine with his mom, and I will never say anything bad about her infront of him, and I think that is very important......

To be the best dad you can be you need to be happy....

Cheers