Weren't We Just Talking About Gunbroker?

Jeff Higgins · 12-21-2009, 04:54 PM

First off, I am not an on-line auction kind of guy. I don't even have an eBay account, I've steadfastly refused to sign up for any auction sites because of the many horror stories circulating about them. I'm even on record here as saying you can do just as well locally, at a gun show or local dealer, as you can on sites like Gunbroker. Except for the "weird stuff" or the unusual, I said. Well, one of my particular fancies popped up on Gunbroker the other day, so I broke my own rules and signed up for an account.

It's kind of an offbeat gun, and no one was bidding on it or a couple others similar to it. The price on this one was very, very good; these things are somewhat under appreciated and unloved by most. So, on a lark, I bid at the opening price. And won. I was the only bidder.

Things went quite as expected at first. We email back and forth addresses and such, and I send payment along with a signed FFL. The auction specified money order or certified check, which is pretty normal. I chose the latter, not wanting anything to do with a post office this time of year.

The seller received the certified check on Friday and tried to cash it at several check cashing places - not banks. Unsuccessful, he finally resorted to going to his bank. They told him they would have to put a hold on it, which come to find out, is not all that unusual these days.

So he calls me (I asked him to if anything came up). He tells me about the hold, and I tell him "fine. No hurry, no worries. Wait to ship it until after the big Christmas rush. No big deal". This is unacceptable to him. I say fine, tear it up and I'll stand in line at the P.O. after work and get a money order out to you today. This doesn't work for him either. He is "done with me". He "has dealt with ass holes like me all of his life", etc. etc. He wants to cancel the transaction and re-list the gun, while returning my check via certified mail.

Then he follows that up with an email. In it, he claims I "defaulted" by not honoring the terms of the auction, by sending a non-specified form of payment. The face of the check says "official check" rather than "certified check" - a simple matter of terminology - they are functionally the same. It's just your normal "guaranteed funds" kind of a bank check, secured in the bank's account, not mine. He is hanging his hat on this.

Granted, it's not over yet - my last email to him pointed out he has both received the check and tried to cash it by his own admission (but found the quite normal waiting period to be unacceptable), and has also refused my offer to replace the check with a money order. And all of this happened in less than half the time allowed to send payment in the first place.

Anyway, sorry about the long rant. Lesson re-learned: if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is. It was a great price on a no longer made, NIB firearm that is kind of rare and interests me. It appears to me he undervalued it (duh - that's why I signed up and jumped on it) and came to realize that. He wants out, while making me out to be the one who defaulted.

Tim Hancock · 12-21-2009, 05:01 PM

Sucks Jeff, but I have had two very smooth transactions on gun broker so far.

onewhippedpuppy · 12-21-2009, 05:02 PM

Better question, can you cancel the check? I've done a lot of online dealings via forums and never had an issue. I've always been very wary though, and passed up a lot of deals that looked too good. Sorry you found a d-bag.

Leland Pate · 12-21-2009, 05:13 PM

Gun guys are usually *******s.

ODDJOB UNO · ODDJOB UNO's Garage

i have (2) good transactions with gun broker, (2) on guns america and (2) on hkforums.com all went good.

this guy sounds like a "SPRITZDUCE!"

MRM · 05:55 PM

Tell Douchenozell that the term "Official Check" is the correct term for what used to be called a "certified check". Certified check is a lay term that isn't technically used by the banking industry. What people mean when they say "certified check" is what the bank calls "official check" so that is what you get when you ask for certified funds. Further tell douchnozell that it is only a default if you breach a material term of the agreement. Material is usually defined as something so significant that it alters the value of the deal. If it doesn't significantly alter the value of the deal, the breach is immaterial and does not relieve the other of his obligations under the contract.

You're probably better off not dealing with this paranoid gunfondler who loves his toys too much to part with them, even when he gets his asking price for them, but you should sleep well comforted by the knowledge that you were 100%right from a practical, moral and legal standpoint. I grew up around people like this and recognize the personality. Someone explained the rudiments of contract law to him and he thinks he can weasle out of his moral and legal abligation by applying an overly formalistic (and flat out wrong) interpretation of your agreement. If you really want the gun, tell him to go down to his bank and ask them for a "certified" check and see what is written on it. Or tell him to ask his bank whether your check was a "certified" check. They'll confirm what I said. The reason no one will cash it, regardless of the fact that it is a certified check, is that there are a lot of forgeries out there. Banks and check cashing places will not cash certified checks period. They will only deposit the check and hold it until funds are confirmed and actually transfer. The fact that he was trying to cash the check at a check cashing place (that charges a percentage of the check) in order to get immediate cash instead of depositing it in his bank (that won't charge a check cashing fee) is a red flag. Why is he so eager to get the cash and so eager to cancel the deal when he sees he won't get cash before shipping the gun? He might not really have the gun. Either that or he's a complete flake, which you knew already.

P.S. you're slightly better off using certified funds from a bank because they do take elementary fraud precautions and if the seller absconds with your money there is some chance you can get it back if you act fast enough. There aren't many safguards with PO money orders. So you did the right thing with the certified check thing.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 12-21-2009, 05:48 PM

Have you considered wiring the money?

where does he live? maybe one of us could give him cash, get the firearm and send it to you.

Jeff Higgins · 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Better question, can you cancel the check? I've done a lot of online dealings via forums and never had an issue. I've always been very wary though, and passed up a lot of deals that looked too good. Sorry you found a d-bag.

I could cancel it, but he said he would return it via registered mail. If he does in fact follow through on that, I may just respond with a USPS money order, just to rattle his cage. Even if I did that next week, I would still be within the alloted time period to close the transaction.

The recurring themes that I see in Gunbroker's dispute resolution advice are communication and time. We have about seven or eight emails back and forth that show we were both making the effort to communicate, providing prompt answers to any requests for information, and getting along quite well. They also show he received payment on Friday, and said to hell with it on Monday already. While successful in the communication realm, he clearly failed in the "time" aspect, not giving me any sort of chance to make him happy with whatever kind of payment he desires. I offered to do so repeatedly, he refused repeatedly, all on the same day.

Anyone who knows me well will tell you the last thing anyone ever wants to do is question my integrity. To accuse me of cheating, or attempting to cheat them. That is his clear intent, to cancel the deal and insinuate I tried to cheat him. Them's fightin' words. I'll latch on like a dog with an old tennis shoe, simply never letting go. Make no mistake, I've taken my lumps over the years on this one. I've lost track of how many times I've been told something "ain't worth it". It's always "worth it " to me. I will never put a price on my integrity.

In this particular case, I have already written off the money as a cheap price to re-learn a valuable lesson. At this point, I don't care if I ever see my money back or the gun. That would be a bonus, sure. But, to me, this kind of thing is bigger than that. I've had far more expensive lessons over the years, and not just monetarily.

Jeff Higgins · 12-21-2009, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Have you considered wiring the money?

I told him I would send it in any form he likes. He said he had put too much of his time into this already, that I had expected far too much of him in that regard, and he wasn't putting in any more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

does he live? maybe one of us could give him cash, get the firearm and send it to you.

He lives in West Covina, CA.

MotoSook · 12-21-2009, 06:11 PM

Why not get GunBroker to work in your favor?

Jeff Higgins · 12-21-2009, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soukus

Why not get GunBroker to work in your favor?

Believe me, I'm trying. I have read every page they have on their site that contains anything even remotely resembling dispute resolution. It is essentially a mobeus strip that leads one continuously back to the same starting point, only completely upside down until you are foolish enough to embark upon another lap, finally winding up exactly where you started. They do an outstanding job of absolving themselves of any real responsibility which, in the end, I suppose they have to do to survive. They leave it entirely between the buyer and seller.

Your only real recourse through them is feedback, and we all see how that works. I gave the guy a solid "F" - "refused to complete transaction". I'm sure he will retaliate in kind, even if he must resort to lying about the whole thing.

m21sniper · 12-21-2009, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leland Pate

Gun guys are usually *******s.

A lot of them are, you're right.

m21sniper · 12-21-2009, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRM

Tell Douchenozell that the term "Official Check" is the correct term for what used to be called a "certified check". Certified check is a lay term that isn't technically used by the banking industry. What people mean when they say "certified check" is what the bank calls "official check" so that is what you get when you ask for certified funds. Further tell douchnozell that it is only a default if you breach a material term of the agreement. Material is usually defined as something so significant that it alters the value of the deal. If it doesn't significantly alter the value of the deal, the breach is immaterial and does not relieve the other of his obligations under the contract.

This is actually not true. A certified check is an actual process whereby one of your checks gets certified by the bank. That is different than a "Bank check" or "official check."

I used to work for a bank for a couple years back in the day.

red-beard · red-beard's Garage

post a link to the buy, or PM me. I have an A+ rating on 21 transactions, both buying and selling. I haven't dealth with anyone like this on Gunbroker. And you can sort of tell who might be, from the descriptions in the auction.

I guess I can see something like this happen, if the person is new to GB. But a longterm person, I don't know. Why he wouldn't just accept depositing the check and waiting, I don't understand. Unless he needs the cash NOW. Or he was PO'd that the auction didn't get him what he wanted.

MRM · 12-21-2009, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m21sniper

This is actually not true. A certified check is an actual process whereby one of your checks gets certified by the bank. That is different than a "Bank check" or "official check."

I used to work for a bank for a couple years back in the day.

A year ago I put together a seven figure deal where certified funds were due in the other guy's office a half hour before the sheriff's sale. Other side balked because the checks I showed up with said "official check" instead of "certified check". To be sure we contacted the banks and were assured that the nomenclature had changed recently and "official checks" were the new certified checks. You might be thinking of a cashier's check. Those still exist. Either way the funds are debited from your account immediately upon drawing the check and are considered good on presentation of the check. Minus the time necessary to make sure the check isn't forged. Which kind of defeats the purpose of depositing certified funds if you have to wait for the check to clear, but that's the world we live in today.

Jim Bremner · 12-21-2009, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leland Pate

Gun guys are usually *******s.

I've yet to deal with one that I didn't want to have a beer with.

VenezianBlau 87 · 12-22-2009, 04:07 AM

After reading your many posts on here, you're obviously an stand up kind of guy. You did everything reasonable to make the transaction work. Chowderhead needs to understand that "official check" is what they're called. I just bought a couple work trucks out of state with an official check, albeit from a bank with an office in that town. There is no certified- or cashiers check. I was a federal bank examiner for 10 years. I think you're on to something with this being a pretext for not wanting to part with the gun or he needs cash now and already has a local cash buyer.

Frankly, I'm an NRA life member and most gun people I've run across (other than professional dealers) are a little bit on the a-hole side. Know it alls from the get-go. If you want to see a weird collection of anti-socials, go to a gun show!

There are some dh's on gunbroker who stipulate a blue ink signed copy from your FFL. Are they kidding? Fax is adequate...

Sorry for the rant and sorry the deal didn't go through. I only buy unusual NOS items from gunbroker. No deals to be had on current production guns.

MotoSook · 12-22-2009, 04:23 AM

I have to say I agree that is it more common to run into a dickhead gun guy than I'd like to see. No wonder the rest if the world think gun owners are all loco.

Hope you get your check back.

ODDJOB UNO · ODDJOB UNO's Garage

heres juan thang werking in your favor..............................

the insane run on guns and ammo IS OVER! prices have dropped on everything here at least. hell the average american citizen owns something like 7.9 guns per individual or some stoopid figure. walls shelves are full again

ammo mfgs have caught up, supply is plentiful.

its not like you cant find this somewhere else if all goes to poo. and hes probably hard up as hell to sell the damn thing to pay off his credit cards since all credit card companies have jacked their interest rates thru the roof before the february federal clampdown on credit card companies B.S. interest rate behavior.

my favorite mode of payment on transactions like this is AMERICAN EXPRESS. i like the fact if it goes to POO and i object to the transaction they will cover my ARSE. and of course NO INTEREST since i pay it off the following month. since im a cheap ass.

sometimes i have to be patient and wait for one to show up that is offered on a credit card, but what the hell is peace of mind worth these days.

targa911S · 12-22-2009, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red-beard

post a link to the buy, or PM me. I have an A+ rating on 21 transactions, both buying and selling. I haven't dealth with anyone like this on Gunbroker. And you can sort of tell who might be, from the descriptions in the auction.

I guess I can see something like this happen, if the person is new to GB. But a longterm person, I don't know. Why he wouldn't just accept depositing the check and waiting, I don't understand. Unless he needs the cash NOW. Or he was PO'd that the auction didn't get him what he wanted.

I think you hit it. He didn't get what he wanted and is using anything he can to get out of the deal. Too bad. Report his a$$ to GB.