How did a single part made by a single supplier screw the world's biggest automaker?

[KaptKaos]

Thanks John.

I've not been a fan of modern cars for a while. Mostly because I thought that they are putting too much electronics into the cars. Things like iDrive, touch screens and such basically put a high cost item into a car that can "total" a car when it fails. When it breaks, it's not worth fixing because the costs exceed the value of the car.

Basically, car manufacturers are making disposable cars, like a bic lighter.

IMO, this just adds to that situation. In 15 years, will you be able to R&R parts on these cars? I doubt it. You certainly couldn't fabricate a replacement part, like that throttle switch.

I don't like this at all.

[jyl]

Really? You can get in a GNX or Challenger, floor the brake pedal and floor the throttle, and drive off? That's quite a trick (of the imagination). If you're talking a true dragster (Funny Car, etc), yes I agree.

On your second point, they've put in safety interlocks in modern cars. In the traditional mechanical key-in-column system, yes you certainly can lock the steering column while driving. I've done it, it scared my pants off.

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Any muscle car ever made.

Ever.


This is simply not true on the vast majority of cars automatic around.

You CANNOT lock your steering with the car in drive.

[m21sniper]

Dude, i am talking about an ALREADY MOVING CAR.

Not one sitting still. If it was sitting still i would not need to stop to begin with.

Go get in a GTX floor it to 100, keep the pedal down, and try to stop.

Report back from heaven how it went.

And on the key thing, if you had that happen your car was broken.You cannot put a properly functioning automatic in park.

Not for decades.

I was an auto tech, you're just flat out wrong. In fact many of them have manual lockouts as well.

[jyl]

Given the demands on modern car designs, all the electronics are kind of unavoidable.

We want cars that get 30-40 mpg, accelerate to 60 mph faster than the typical V8 did in the 70s, have very low emissions, hold the road better than most sports cars used to do, won't let us lock the brakes, protect us from over steer and under steer, will take a huge impact and protect the occupants, navigate for us, play MP3s and maintain perfect cabin temperature, warm our bottoms, hold our Starbucks, yadda yadda - and be affordable to boot.

How could you do that without electronics? You can't. So, we have huge electronic content in cars.

Doesn't mean that modern cars don't last a decently long time. The average US car right now is 10 years old.

But will today's cars be drivable, restorable, maintainable in 30 years? I guess if the car is worth bothering with and there are enough stocked parts or junked cars to cannibalize parts from, sure. (No, you can't fabricate a replacement airbag sensor or ECU or satnav system in your garage, but, really, how many car parts can you fabricate in your garage?) A 928 is a complex car with quite a bit of electronics, and they are still viable cars today. That vast majority of today's cars, though, won't be on the road in 20 years and you won't care, because you won't want to drive them.

Originally Posted by KaptKaos

Thanks John.

I've not been a fan of modern cars for a while. Mostly because I thought that they are putting too much electronics into the cars. Things like iDrive, touch screens and such basically put a high cost item into a car that can "total" a car when it fails. When it breaks, it's not worth fixing because the costs exceed the value of the car.

Basically, car manufacturers are making disposable cars, like a bic lighter.

IMO, this just adds to that situation. In 15 years, will you be able to R&R parts on these cars? I doubt it. You certainly couldn't fabricate a replacement part, like that throttle switch.

I don't like this at all.

[jyl]

This hysteria about brakes being unable to overpower engines is ridiculous. For a forum of supposed car guys, it is shameful to be so ill-informed.

Car And Driver:

With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—that’s a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry’s throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping-distance differential was 88 feet—noticeable to be sure, but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence. We also tried one go-for-broke run at 120 mph, and, even then, the car quickly decelerated to about 10 mph before the brakes got excessively hot and the car refused to decelerate any further. So even in the most extreme case, it should be possible to get a car’s speed down to a point where a resulting accident should be a low-speed and relatively minor event.

[m21sniper]

Didn't work for the state trooper in REAL WORLD conditions, did it Jyl?

If only Car and Driver had been driving that car that day, all those people wouldn't be dead....

[kaisen]

From accounts of the State Trooper incident the brakes (at least the rears) were 'smoking and flaming' from brake application.

If it were your conscious goal to bring the car to a complete and immediate stop, one swift forceful pedal application SHOULD bring any car to a hault, even full throttle, even downhill.

Without knowing what was going through the driver's thoughts, I can see where one would hope that whatever issues were occuring with the car would be temporary. So, you'd stab at the gas pedal hoping it would return, push at the 'stop' button hoping to turn off the engine, move the transmission selector, etc. Meanwhile you are navigating the streets and you'd be appying the brake pedal as needs arise, eventually trying to brake the car, but releasing and re-applying throughout the incident (I would guess).

Maybe that application and re-application allowed enough heat-build-up to heat-soak the brakes and cause enough fade that the brakes would no longer overpower the engine.

Those who have driven street cars on the track can tell you it's possible.

Even Car and Driver stuffed a new 370Z Nismo into the armco at VIR due to 'failed' brakes. And I'm quite certain Lexus wouldn't have chosen brake pad formulation suited for the track. More likely chosen for noise, longevity, and smooth feel.

[kaisen]

Didn't Todd (nostatic) have that issue with is Subie at the track?

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by kaisen

From accounts of the State Trooper incident the brakes (at least the rears) were 'smoking and flaming' from brake application.

If it were your conscious goal to bring the car to a complete and immediate stop, one swift forceful pedal application SHOULD bring any car to a hault, even full throttle, even downhill.

Without knowing what was going through the driver's thoughts, I can see where one would hope that whatever issues were occuring with the car would be temporary. So, you'd stab at the gas pedal hoping it would return, push at the 'stop' button hoping to turn off the engine, move the transmission selector, etc. Meanwhile you are navigating the streets and you'd be appying the brake pedal as needs arise, eventually trying to brake the car, but releasing and re-applying throughout the incident (I would guess).

Maybe that application and re-application allowed enough heat-build-up to heat-soak the brakes and cause enough fade that the brakes would no longer overpower the engine.

Those who have driven street cars on the track can tell you it's possible.

Even Car and Driver stuffed a new 370Z Nismo into the armco at VIR due to 'failed' brakes. And I'm quite certain Lexus wouldn't have chosen brake pad formulation suited for the track. More likely chosen for noise, longevity, and smooth feel.

I'm pretty sure most people would just stand on the brake if they realized they had a stuck throttle and the car wouldn't turn off.

This guy apparently braked so much his linings caught on fire. Clearly the brakes were inadequate to the task.

Hopefully this cop's family will receive the largest lawsuit reward of all time. Toyota should be absolutely bankrupted for allowing cars to be put on the street that cannot be readily shutdown IMMEDIATELY in an emergency.

[jyl]

If you keep braking the car against a WOT throttle, then letting it accelerate, and braking again, then let it accelerate again, without ever shutting the car off (press and hold button) or putting it in neutral (push stick), eventually your brakes will fade away. That accident developed over a long time - long enough to call 911 and have a conversation - and it seems to me the driver just never gathered his wits enough to operate the necessary controls.

[pwd72s]

This morning's radio news said Toyata Prius models are experiencing brake failure. Hmmm, I didn't know they needed brakes.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by jyl

If you keep braking the car against a WOT throttle, then letting it accelerate, and braking again, then let it accelerate again, without ever shutting the car off (press and hold button) or putting it in neutral (push stick), eventually your brakes will fade away. That accident developed over a long time - long enough to call 911 and have a conversation - and it seems to me the driver just never gathered his wits enough to operate the necessary controls.

Right...a cop.

Who had the forethought to call 911.

Couldn't think to put the car in neutral. Oh wait, the Toyota doesn't care...keeps going

Couldn't think to hit the off button. Oh right, it has to be held for 3 full seconds. Who would know this unless specifically told? Is your answer really RTM?

Couldn't think to stand on the brakes as soon as the car couldn't stop. Right....a cop couldn't figure this out. Right. Yeah.

It stretches belief beyond all credibility that a cop couldn't get a car to stop by standing on the brakes if it was capable.

I hope Toyota gets HAMMERED by this dead cop's family.

[jyl]

I think kaisen's take on it makes more sense.

The driver notices the throttle isn't releasing, he pokes at the brake and slows the car down, then pokes at the throttle and maybe gets it stuck even deeper, uses the brakes again, muddles around wondering what is going on, the longer he futzes with it the hotter his brakes get, this goes on for some time - long enough for his passengers to get scared, call 911, have a conversation with the dispatcher - for some reason he doesn't figure out how to shift to neutral or turn off the power, by now his brakes are faded away.

I suspect he never "stood on the brakes" until it was too late.

Yes, even a police officer could make such a mistake. From your prior posts about the police, I wouldn't have thought you'd be surprised that police officers can do boneheaded things.

[m21sniper]

Cops get advanced driving courses. The average cop is a far better driver than the average citizen.

That is an issue totally separate to cops over reacting and beating people up.

I do not buy for one second that he didn't try a "panic stop" early in the ordeal.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Dude, i am talking about an ALREADY MOVING CAR.

Not one sitting still. If it was sitting still i would not need to stop to begin with.

Ahhh. A little levity is good.

I too am leaning towards siding with Kaisen. I don't know the details on the cop, so I won't comment. I still believe a panic stop would work. I could be wrong. Hope I never find out. My 911 stuck throttle caused an over-rev and a bent valve. (Both the stuck throttle and the rebuild were my fault)

My 2001 Jetta (diesel) shuts off the throttle when you hit the brakes. Sounds like something Toyota might want to think about re-flashing onto their cars. Aside from drives who use two feet, I can't see a downside.

[911pcars]

Found this:



Sherwood

[M.D. Holloway]

Anytime I have raced, my throttle is all out, I use the brakes to control speed rather then the go-pedel. I guess it it may be one reason I won't get rich racing!

[aigel]

This guy may be onto something? I don't buy that the more severe cases are from pedal assemblies or floor mats:

Toyota Recall: Electronic Design Flaw Linked to Toyota Runaway Acceleration Problems, Expert Says - ABC News

George

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by aigel

This guy may be onto something? I don't buy that the more severe cases are from pedal assemblies or floor mats:

Toyota Recall: Electronic Design Flaw Linked to Toyota Runaway Acceleration Problems, Expert Says - ABC News

George

I'd have to see what he did to the circuit to induce WOT. He could have simply shorted the throttle position sensor (TPS) so the ECU thinks the driver wants full throttle or something equivalent but not likely to happen. Dunno. Otherwise, the good professor is telling us what's obvious. For example, No DTCs of unintended WOT (there is for normal WOT). Why would there be? It'd be like wondering why there isn't a trouble code for a broken brake pedal.

Sherwood

[aigel]

Agreed, Sherwood, it isn't clear what he did to trigger the WOT condition and there is no reason to leave out that information. I would like to see what the modifications are he does and also what the results are if they are applied to other automatker's systems.

One thing is for sure - if you don't build such a system with belts and suspenders, it may get away from you - no pun intended.

George