US refuses foreign help in BP oil crisis.... WTF

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by widgeon13

No problem, they'll declare bankruptcy, restructure and walk away from most of the financial burden...

not allowed under some env'l laws - they can still go after individuals, board, officers, etc.

BTW - I don't know anything about the Jones Act, but if it is illegal, then the Govt. cannot do it. Only after Congress passed another modificiation to the Jones Act could the govt. do anything.

[gduke2010]

Originally Posted by widgeon13

No problem, they'll declare bankruptcy, restructure and walk away from most of the financial burden, either that or they'll say they are going under and the govt. will bail them out because they are too big to fail.

The only one's making a buck off this will be the scumbag lawyers and environmental consultants that will be asked and paid dearly to assess the impact and really, they don't have a clue.

This is uncharted water!

You're right BP is too big to fail. It's Britians only non-financial markee conpany and pays 1/6 of the dividens in Britian.

[widgeon13]

Originally Posted by RWebb

not allowed under some env'l laws - they can still go after individuals, board, officers, etc.

BTW - I don't know anything about the Jones Act, but if it is illegal, then the Govt. cannot do it. Only after Congress passed another modificiation to the Jones Act could the govt. do anything.

Perhaps you are correct about the difficulty of avoiding penalty of environmental laws but keep in mind that the legal system can drag things out for entended periods of time. I was surprised to hear just recently that Union Carbide managers were just given jail sentences for the Bhopal disaster and yes, they will be appealing. That occurred in 1984. You might say, poor comparison because of the dramatic difference in lose of life but any life lost is too many. This BP spill will far exceed Bhopal in $$ for clean-up and time for the environment to recover.

I can appreciate that a court case in India is handled much differently than in the US but it also seems that the bigger the case and more publicity it gets the longer the court dealings and negotiated settlements.

The lawyers will make a killing on this for years to come.

[bivenator]

Steffy: U.S. and BP slow to accept Dutch expertise | Business: Loren Steffy | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

Here is an artcle relating to the DEMA offer to assist in the berm building along the gulf coast.
It would seem that the admin said thanks, but no thanks. Disgracefully arrogant IMHO. THe Jones Act, sure that is in place but in an emergency action must be taken. Dithering goofballs.

[RWebb]

speaking of goofballs... go back up and read my response

if it is illegal, the Govt. cannot do it.

[bivenator]

I find it amusing when you say "if it is illegal, the Govt. cannot do it." Oh brother, the irony.
This disaster needs some thinking outside the normal parameters.

[Jim Richards]

If it's against the law and the Gov't does it, you b_tch.
If it's against the law and the Gov't doesn't do it, you b_tch.
LOL.

[widgeon13]

An interesting article on BP future options.

BP hit by doubts over ability to pay spill costs - MarketWatch

[JJ 911SC]

... They don`t want our oil either. No problemo, I think the Chinese will take it

But don`t come crying when you ran out!!!

Key US City Acts to Avoid 'Dirty' Tar Sands Fuel : LA IMC

[bivenator]

The Jones Act was temporarily waived following Katrina. This was done under Bush, if Obama can't figure out how to get this done perhaps he should stop looking for ass and acquire some leadership skill.

From Wiki
case by case basis. Waivers have been granted for example, in cases of national emergencies or in cases of strategic interest. For instance, declining oil production prompted MARAD to grant a waiver to operators of the 512-foot Chinese vessel Tai An Kou to tow an oil rig from the Gulf of Mexico to Alaska. The jackup rig will be under a two-year contract to drill in the Alaska's Cook Inlet Basin. The waiver to the Chinese vessel is said to be the first of its kind granted to an independent oil-and-gas company.[6]

In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff temporarily waived the U.S. Shipping Act for foreign vessels carrying oil and Natural gas from September 1 to 19, 2005. [1][2]

Pressure exerted by 21 agriculture groups, including the American Farm Bureau Federation, failed to secure a U.S. Shipping waiver following Hurricane Katrina. The groups contended that farmers would be adversely affected without additional shipping options to transport grains and oilseeds.[6]

There are certain American ports which are exempt from provisions of the Jones Act. They are Guam, American Samoa and the Northern Marianas in the Pacific and the United States Virgin Islands in the Caribbean. There have historically been sufficiently few calls to those ports that requiring American cabotage was assumed to be a hardship.[citation needed

[jyl]

Sensible, or grand-standing?

"Attorney General McCollum today sent a letter to BP asking the company to deposit no less than $2.5 billion into an interest-earning escrow account so Florida can be assured of its availability to the state and its citizens and businesses over the long-term recovery period. "Based on recent estimates from an economist, Florida could ultimately see losses as great as $2.2 billion, as well as a sharp decline in employment in the industries directly impacted by the Deepwater Horizon oil spill," wrote the Attorney General. "As Florida braces for what will likely be a staggering blow to its economy with significant impacts to our state's workforce and the revenues of the state and local governments, it is essential that BP establish immediately a dedicated escrow account solely for the purpose of paying claims and damages to Florida and its citizens."

[RWebb]

the waiver notion is interesting, but I'd want to do legal research on conditions req'd for a waiver before saying Obama could do it, much less whether he should

I still don't see what the Dutch offer would really accomplish

[Garp]

Originally Posted by RWebb

the waiver notion is interesting, but I'd want to do legal research on conditions req'd for a waiver before saying Obama could do it, much less whether he should

I still don't see what the Dutch (should read Low Countries really) offer would really accomplish

I posted this a couple of days back on RL.

Something you will not hear about Stateside. Only a few days after the start of the spill, representatives from the company offered their services. Moving the vessel would have taken three weeks. They were turned down. This was just in the news and probably a bit onesided info from the company itself.

The fall pipe vessel Simon Stevin will mostly be deployed in the offshore industry in which oil and gas pipes have to be installed at large depths: the Simon Stevin can level the seabed and dump rock up to a depth of 2,000 m. The fall pipe can process boulders with a diameter up to 400 mm, which is more than any other fall pipe vessel on the market.

Dredging Today – Jan de Nul provides details about and confirms the delivery of fallpipe vessel Simon Stevin

Deadweight 36,000 tons

Length 191.5 m

Breadth 40.0 m

Draught loaded 8.5 m

Propulsion power 4 x 3,350 kW

Bow thruster power 4 x 2,000 kW

Total installed diesel power 24,350 kW

Rock storage capacity 19,500 m³

Speed 15.5 kn

Accommodation 70

Dynamic positioning DYNAPOS AM/AT R Class 2

Helideck

Fall pipe

Maximum dumping depth 2,000 m

Maximum dumping capacity 2,000 tons/hr

Fall pipe diameter 1,000 mm

Rock size D100 max 400 m

A few interesting facts and numbers regarding the fall pipe vessel Simon Stevin

* The Simon Stevin is the largest sailing fall pipe vessel in the world with a capacity of 33,500 tons. This is 25% larger than the 2nd in row, the ‘Nordness‘ with a capacity of 25,960 tons. 33,500 tons is enough to provide the Grand Place in Brussels for at least 20 times with new cobble stones.
* The Simon Stevin is the first ‘purpose built’ fall pipe vessel. From day 1 the design was optimized to work at great depths.
* In order to install the rocks with great accuracy, the pipe is attached below the vessel until right above the seabed, up to a depth of 2,000 m. That is as deep as 6x the Eiffel tower. The fall pipe can be built in 6 hours and, after dumping, can be dismantled in six hours and taken on board of the vessel. To facilitate this, Jan De Nul Group designed a new installation method that is fully automated and that works independently from the vessel movements at sea. The heart of the installation, the so called ‘motion base’ is manufactured by Jan De Nul Group itself.
* The bottom of the fall pipe is operated by an unmanned submarine, Remote Operated Vehicle (ROV), that can work at depths up to 2,000 m. A ‘common’ manned submarine cannot go deeper than 250m.
* The vessel is equipped with a second ROV for survey and other interventions. This can be operated completely independently.
* The rocks are dumped at 2,000 tons per hour which equals 100 trucks per hour or 1 full truck every 36 seconds.
* The total engine power amounts to more than 25,000 kW, enough to provide a city of 130,000 inhabitants with electricity to do the housekeeping.
* The distance between the keel and the bridge equals the height of a church. However, a lift on the vessel makes life a lot easier.
* The accommodation on the vessel for more than 70 persons can easily compete with four star hotels. For instance, every day 35 m³ – or 3 tankers – of drinking water is produced out of seawater. The same water is being purified on board after which it can flow back into the sea.
* The vessel has its own helicopter landing platform that is suitable for most types of helicopters such as the well-known Seaking from the popular Flemish TV series and movie “Windkracht 10”.
* The fall-pipe module was built in Belgium and was hoisted on board in one go. The 2,000 ton heavy module is as large as an apartment complex with 70 apartments divided over 8 floors.

[Garp]

They also offered the help of the two largest suction hoppers in the world which can basically suck-up the oil with tubes of 4 ft diameter down to 450 ft depth. This is coming from one of the largest dredging company in the world, with a specialisation in oil and gas. The company rep said he has never been so frustrated in his life. After having been himself for several weeks on scene he now says he hopes to have their boats set course for the Gulf.

Twelve months after the keel laying of the trailing suction hopper dredger Leiv Eiriksson at Construcciones Navales del Norte in Sestao, Spain, the vessel was launched on 4 September.

The mega hopper, with a capacity of 46,000m³ , is a sister vessel to Cristóbal Colón.

The vessel is equipped with two suction pipes, with a diameter of 1,300mm, with electrically driven underwater dredge pumps, with a power of 6,500kW each, enabling dredging down to water depths of 155m.

Discharge is possible by means of two electrically driven shore discharging dredge pumps, with each 8,000 kW power.

Fully loaded, carrying up to 78,500 tons of sand, Leiv Eiriksson will sail at a speed of 18 knots, and will thus offer clients an economic solution for the execution of major dredging and land reclamation jobs.

The naming was performed by Annita Boel, wife of Géry Vandewalle, a Director at Jan de Nul. Instead of the traditional bottle of Champagne, a bottle of red wine was used, which is customary in this region of Northern Spain.

After the launching, the ship was moored at the outfitting quay of the shipyard, for completion.

Early in 2010 the vessel will join the fleet of Jan De Nul Group, which will then include the two largest hopper dredgers in the world. At this time the company wil also become the largest fleet of hopper dredgers in the world.

The next ship to be built in Sestao is JDN8035, a suction hopper dredger with a capacity of 30,500m³

[stealthn]

They won't let them in because they've got Kevin Kostner going to help now...

I think it's time to take the whole thing out of BP's hands give it to the Navy/Gov and any experts available; BP can just stand in the back of the room writing cheques.

Getting really sick of seeing the live feeds; with zero results

[RWebb]

well, right now it won't help to suck up more of the mix, b/c they cannot process any more (separate the oil from the oil/water mix) -- unless you mean skimming the slick up

interesting tho, any info on who says what about why they were turned down?

did a reporter say "why not waive the Jones Act? Bush did it."??

[RWebb]

quick tidbit:

The requirements for a Jones Act waiver include:

* a 12-passenger limit
* a U.S. citizen must own the vessel

[jyl]

Garp, those dredging ships sound nice but what would they achieve here? One can deposit rocks on the ocean floor, but earlier discussion in this thread was that the oil is at such a pressure that dumping the biggest concrete block on the well isn't going to stop it. The other can suck up water from a depth of 470 feet, but isn't the well 5,000 feet deep? I may be missing your point, but I doubt there is a silver bullet that has been on offer since day one but was rejected for no good reason.

[sammyg2]

Our current government is pushing and unpopular "environmental" tax that will be in the $900 billion range.
Lots of pushing back as it is a really, really bad idea.

The bigger this BP oil spill gets, the bigger the coverage is, the bigger the outrage they generate, the better chance they have to push their social engineering experiment through.
They want this spill to be huge.
They want the general public (uninformed morons) to be all upset so their knee-jerk reactions will be to support the administration's huge energy tax.
You are all being played for fools and are willing participants.

Like our president likes to say, never let a crisis go to waste. His force has a strong influence on the weak-minded.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by stealthn

They won't let them in because they've got Kevin Kostner going to help now...

I think it's time to take the whole thing out of BP's hands give it to the Navy/Gov and any experts available; BP can just stand in the back of the room writing cheques.

Getting really sick of seeing the live feeds; with zero results

Says the guy without a clue on the subject.
Do you really think a bunch of bureaucrats know more about stopping a leak a mile deep than the people who do this kind of thing for a living? Seriously?