Alternatively, it means American labor is undervalued by businesses. The new reality is that nobody will be able to buy sheet except the business owners. I wonder if they constitute significant volume.

Alternatively, feel free to come on down to El Paso or Southern Arizona to see the other side of the issue.

By "undervalued" you mean that it is the wage structure that allows business to have ready and willing customers with cash or credit cards in their pockets to purchase their products. Yep...and Nope to the respective questions.

However there are whole new markets developing for the cheap stuff they are going to produce..

Yup. With all due respect to rampant political mythology, the unions I work with were unanimously and vigorously opposed to even the legal inflow as provided in NAFTA. Building trades unemployment is conservatively estimated at 30% right now, in the relatively robust economy of Seattle, WA. Their position (my local Seattle bldg trades unions) is that OUR jobs are for OUR people.

Mr. Richards apparently shares my concern. America stays strong as long as ordinary Americans are at least minimally affluent consumers. Absent that, America probably crumbles. And quite frankly, America's international corporations don't necessarily have to care about that. Many of them would be (are) happy to prepare to shift their production and sales efforts elsewhere. There is legal and illegal. Good and bad. Right and wrong. Lucrative and non-lucrative. Commerce cares about the first pair and the last, and could give a flying you-know-what about the two middle pairs.

First of all the illegals are not immigrants, they are illegals as in criminals. The 800 pound gorrilla in the writting is the fact, the cold, irrefutable bloody fact that they have no respect for the rule of law. The rule of law is the very basis, the rock on which this nation was built. Without that they are nothing more than opportunistic criminals.

If they come to this country as a true immigrant, well bring them on, everyone!! Just like the other waves of immigrants before them. If they come as guest workers (which we have no program to protect them) bring them on. But most of all respect the law. They are illegals, criminals, they take from others and degrade the conditions of other citizens and legal immigrants. They cut in line and reduce the standard of the society in many ways.

Don't get me started.

I agree with you, Dan. And I notice something about the application of your value in American society.......it only applies 'sort of.' Americans are renowned rule-breakers. When was the last time you saw somebody driving the speed limit?

Remember the story about the couple who jaywalked in a small German town, against a red light, because there were no cars in sight? The German citizens looking on gasped audibly. The transgressor, a Pelicanhead, reported this on this very forum, and several other Pelicanheads quickly reported that German citizens are obedient. Americans are NOT. Here comes the best part: A Pelicanhead proposed that if US Congress and German Congress both passed a law creating a 10 mph speed limit, the two nations' citizenry would react differently. German drivers would drive 10mph until the next election, whereupon those Congress persons would be defeated and the incoming would repeal the law. In America, drivers would continue driving 75 mph, then re-elect the bastids that passed the silly law.

The same works in commerce in America. All's fair in love, war and commerce. Only the most unlucky of the most serious transgressors are ever brought anywhere near justice. If it makes money, and hurts a few people, those people are simple casualties in the very fun game of American commerce. Illegals are GREAT fun to employ. They don't even expect minimum wage, forget overtime, they keep their heads down and work hard and if they threaten to revolt, the employer drops an anonymous tip off to INS and deportation occurs. This teaches the remaining workers a lesson about obedience. And don't tell me this doesn't happen. I have watched it happen.

For just how long?

Very true. Even Americans have a threshold level, that is what frustrates me so much. I don't mind legal immigrants (which most of some time or another were) come here and break the speed limit as long as they validate that they are with being an American. Guest workers get the same privilege and RESPECT as it shows not only their values but affirms ours.

And yes we are a rather rebellious lot.

sub'd

My first problem with the illegals is their refusal to integrate. I don't know why, but somebody is telling them they don't have to, and that the rest of the country will bend to suit their needs. Unfortunately, it's true. Various state agencies felt the need to provide Spanish-language services, and businesses thought they were being 'market savvy' by providing advertising and customer service in Spanish.

Let's say I decided to move to Russia - legally or illegally - to live and work there. I would keep my head down, do my best to speak Russian, and generally try not to make an ass of myself. I would not be protesting in the streets, waving an American flag, demanding that the Russians give me stuff (medical care, welfare, etc).

My second problem is, well, they're here illegally.

Yep. Press 1 for English. Press 2 for ICE.

Supes, I am dubious about your assertion. The purple shirts(SEIU) are protesting the AZ law in the streets. Those are potential new members and new Democratic voters.

And you'd do well there for it. Unlike Americans, other countries' people are not saddled by some compulsion to be loved or feel guilty. We like to call ourselves compassionate or generous, but it's really a gross sense of narcisissm, longing for love and bewilderment at how the rest of the world doesn't see things the way we do. Mexicans come here with a sense of entitlement because they are rewarded for it. They have no shortage of apologists, defenders and even lobbyists who will do whatever it takes to make them appear and remain victims. That only exists in America.

Why they have, to a large extent, failed to prosper like the asians is a good question. But that they have failed to do so isn't really at issue

Your writting is pretty good until I read your statement on the top.
You failed to realized working industriously is not the only attributes to make you successful.
You failed to recognized that values and education contributes to the stability and success
of Asian community (which the Mexican don't have).
I know, I'm Asian.

Around here substitute Arab immigrants and mosque for church and could say nearly the same.

I appreciate your respectful post.

When I speak of my experiences with Labor, I am generally speaking only opf "building trades" unions. They are different. Very different. They comprise a fairly large block within the broader Labor community, and their influence is substantial for a variety of reasons, but they do not necessarily speak for all of Labor. Indeed, the differences between their (building trades unions) perspective and those of other Labor organizations is often striking and occasionally amusing. Some of my building trades colleagues refer to the broader Labor Council meetings as the "nut and raisin show."

The unique perspective of building trades labor unions is complex and I will not provide an outline here, but a couple of obervations might help you guess accurately at some of that. First, building trades unions are today's modern evolution of the exclusive and even secretive "guilds" of the Middle Ages. Like the Masons. Second, building trades jobs carry fairly attractive wage and benefit packages. Thirdly, construction site jobs cannot be outsourced. And finally, every single building trade is a full-on career profession. It takes a good four years just to complete an apprenticeship program, and ongoing education is the rule rather than the exception. It takes a GREAT deal of skill to build things efficiently and effective. And there is one more important aspect. These guys are in physical danger throughout their entire work day. Every day. Their colleagues are maimed and killed not infrequently. Laziness can get people killed. Stoopid decisions on construction sites are not tolerated. Not by management, and certainly not by rank-and-file. They are "industrial athletes."

So no, they are not anxious to accept any Tom, Dick or Jose' into their fraternity.

it's over..
we don't have the will/or courage to do what needs to be done..
the horse is on one knee already..
sadly no-one will shoot it..
get it over with..and move on..
the wolves are putting on napkins...
US for dinner...
glad I'm old..
need to work on not giving a fk..
tired of taking Pepcid..

Rika

I am optimistic about the future of our country.

me too.