Let's Count Our Blessing...

[JJ 911SC]

Just finish diner (prime roast with good wine), surf my favorite website, put an order for stuff I'll need when I drop the engine and will have a good Scotch (or two) to finish the evening.

As usual, watch 60 Minutes... The 99'ers was the first story. People that had good job, living the American dream and are now at the end of the 99 weeks of unemployment insurance, lost pretty well everything and they don't know what is next.

Yes, like most of us here should do, I'm counting my blessing...

Cheers (not really)

JJ

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by JJ 911SC

Just finish diner (prime roast with good wine), surf my favorite website, put an order for stuff I'll need when I drop the engine and will have a good Scotch (or two) to finish the evening.

As usual, watch 60 Minutes... The 99'ers was the first story. People that had good job, living the American dream and are now at the end of the 99 weeks of unemployment insurance, lost pretty well everything and they don't know what is next.

Yes, like most of us here should do, I'm counting my blessing...

Cheers (not really)

JJ

I'm of the firm belief that if someone hasn't found a job after 99 weeks, they didn't want one very bad.

[drcoastline]

I'm with ya JJ. I'm very fortunate compared to a lot of people out there.

Although I gotta agree with Sammy too... There is something out there people can do. Maybe not what you want but something if you want to work.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

I'm of the firm belief that if someone hasn't found a job after 99 weeks, they didn't want one very bad.

Back in 2001 I was making pretty good money, nearly 6 figures (over if you count my sign-on bonus) for someone with less than two years in my field (computer networking, Cisco stuff). I got laid off. I was scheduled to go contract for Comcast installing cable or cable modems or something like that, but just before I started, I got a job that paid cash under the table working in a game room that was attached to a Bingo Hall. I took the game room job and worked that for about 8 months before I got a job back in my chosen field. I was out of my chosen field for almost a year. I'd bartended for a couple of weeks as well. My finances were in really bad shape when I finally got back to business, and they took many years to recover, but I didn't default on anything and always managed to pay my bills, even the credit cards. It wasn't easy and it took some juggling, but hey, you've gotta do what you've gotta do, right?

2 years with no job? Yeah, other than a tiny minority, you must not be looking very hard.

[JJ 911SC]

I know it's hard conceived as I've never been there, but it happened. My brother in law was a production manager for a few of the high fling tech one; Nortel, Newbridge and the likes. Lost everything, dip pump gas and now work in a glass factory at $13/hrs, at 50+, it's best option until he get to 65 and collect Old Age pension.

One of the 99'ers was in the 200K bracket, he is now on a part time job at Target below $9/Hrs.

masraum

Good for you that you were able to manage through your difficult time.

[VaSteve]

If you were making 200k and can't find any job other than 9/hr at Target, you were overpaid before. A man making that kind of money should a network or transferable skills.

[JJ 911SC]

Originally Posted by VaSteve

If you were making 200k and can't find any job other than 9/hr at Target, you were overpaid before. A man making that kind of money should a network or transferable skills.

Apparently not with 14.8 million unemployed. That is exactly what he though.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

There's a big problem with the present unemployment system that I've heard very few people talk about - and that's the built-in, inherent disincentive for people to work... At least if your definition of "work" means, "do whatever you can because it's the "right thing to do" versus collecting any form of unemployment". I ran into this myself - let me explain:

The way UI works is that you're paid an amount based on what your income was prior to becoming unemployed. It's not a percentage per se, but it's more like tiers or brackets - if you earn from $X to $Y annually, you receive a certain amount. If you earned from $Y to $Z, you receive this other amount, etc. If you work or earn any money whatsoever during the period of your claim, that amount is deducted from the amount you receive. This is the problem, and before someone simply says "then people are inherently lazy" in thoughtless, Pavlovian manner I'll explain the conundrum that's created:

Let's say you had a job making oh, $110K to $130k a year and lost it (just hypothetically... ). Your UI payment would be (IIRC) something like $450 a week or $1,800 monthly as a "top tier" earner. Most people with so-called "good" jobs fall into this category (I think it's anything over about $50k a year puts you in this category). While this might sound like enough to do okay, also consider that's about $22K a year which is not exactly raking it in by anyone's standards. On top of this, you still must pay federal and state tax on it as income, so realistically you'll see around $18K-$20K a year. Probably enough to eat but after groceries, utilities (electricity, gas, water, trash, whatever else in your area), housing costs (huge percentage, depending on area), etc. it goes pretty fast. In my case personally, the amount paid my rent, electric, gas and phone but that's it. There was nothing left after that. My wife's paycheck (fortunately she still had one) paid the groceries, the costs of gasoline, any job-search-related travel I needed to do, etc.

So what's an industrious person to do? Well, when it happened to me, I said, "ahh whatever - I'll just go get a part time job waiting tables or tending bar or pouring coffees at the local Starbucks until I can find something commensurate with my abilities in my own field again". But here's the rub - doing any of those things (or even a combination of them) doesn't even give you Dollar #1 towards giving you any extra income until you earn past $450 a week, which is pretty tough to do working at a grocery store or a McDonalds or a Target (based on a 40-hour week, it would require you to make $11.25 an hour, which is far more than most of these places pay).

Also consider the intangible costs of doing this. While you might get the satisfaction of "earning your keep" or "trying to do the right thing", the reality is it takes a big toll on you. Working 40 hours a week (or more) at a McJob that has no future and isn't really in your line of expertise/training is a big drain on your time and your energy. It very quickly ends up getting looked at as a wasted expenditure of resources since the return on investment is so low. I had a hell of a time justifying spending that many hours to gain literally NOTHING in terms of extra money in my pocket when I could use those hours far more effectively looking for work in my own field, updating my resumes and qualifications statements and portfolios, networking with other professionals in my field, obtaining additional training and credentials in my field, etc. It's very, very difficult (I'd say it's actually not possible in many cases) to do any of those things with a 40-hour-a-week anchor around your neck that nets you exactly $0. It's time away from pursuits that actually bolster your standing within your own profession or field, to say nothing of time away from family. Is it really worth it just to give yourself some kind of bragging rights (i.e. "hey, look at me and how great I am - I made my situation harder on myself but I collected less from the UI system than that guy")?

At the end of the day, nobody cares. Frankly (as I see it) this is the entire point of having a UI system - so people CAN get good jobs in their fields again, not just take some crap job flipping burgers. That's why it is set up the way it is. It allows a good, skilled, trained person to not have to chuck that all just to chase a crappy paycheck, which ultimately benefits neither the person nor our society as a whole long-term.

There's another problem with this too - permanent resume damage. Again, even though you might be motivated and really want to "do the right thing" and be able to feel a sense of earning rather than taking, it can very likely hurt you rather than help you long-term. Five years down the road assuming things are more normal by then, how do you think a prospective employer might look at the following two (entirely hypothetical of course) resumes:

Sample #1:

- Two years as project manager
- Four years as senior project manager
- Three years as company VP
- Two years working as p/t sales associate at Wal-Mart

Sample #2:

- Two years as project manager
- Four years as senior project manager
- Three years as company VP
- Two years unemployed/self-employed (insert language about professional growth efforts, additional training, certifications and credentials obtained, etc. here)

Sure, an employer MIGHT look at Resume #1 and say, "that guy wants to work, whatever it takes and I can respect that" but the reality is most HR types would probably look at Resume #2 as the "better" candidate, committed to his/her profession and trend towards that person. Sorry, but that's how it works now. Most hiring decisions (except for very small businesses) are made by HR wonks with the full complement of convoluted logic that goes along with it. Unfortunately that's reality and you need to respond to it. So based on that, it's better to stay "in your field" even if you're not doing anything that pays than it is to just take a McJob.

Of course once UI runs out after 99 weeks, the rules of the game change - now there IS an incentive to go take even a "crap" job because it puts money in your pocket. However the long-term damage to your career progression is still there and someone down the road is bound to ask you on an interview (assuming you even get to that point, more likely your resume would be round-filed way before then), "why did you work at a position clearly below your abilities for so long rather than enhancing your qualifications in the area you're being considered for?"

Tough one to answer.

So as I see it, it's "best" to try to self-employ yourself/consult, take additional training, pound pavement, network and polish up resumes, etc. during your "off" time than it is to go get some crap job somewhere that won't even put Dollar #1 into your pocket for killing yourself 40 hours (or more) a week. Perverse? Perhaps, but that's our system. Having been through it, I actually don't find it perverse as long as it's not abused. It can be an enabler and allow people to get back on their feet and help prevent a short-term setback from morphing into a permanent one.

At the end of the day, people pay far more in taxes and contribute far more to society from positions of wealth than poverty - and if this means that society needs to "help them along" for a period of time until they can get back to being in a position of wealth, that's a good investment. A few tens of thousands in UI payments is more than offset by the tax contributions of a six-figure salary earner in very short order, to say nothing of the taxes that person pays through purchases, capital gains, etc.

Tell me again why people eligible for UI should be working at Starbucks again?

[GH85Carrera]

Thanks for the explanation of UI.

I am thankfully ignorant of that entire system. Since age 16 I have had five days of not earning a paycheck. All of those days were related to moving to the new job.

Back in the 80s Oklahoma had a maor oil boom. Then it collapsed. Several of the guys I knew from the Porsche club went from rolling in money to broke. That same boom and bust has happened several times. It will happen again.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

No trouble and good on ya'! This last situation with me was similarly a stinker; I've worked some sort of job since I was 14 years old - and that includes all the time in college and graduate school. It sucked to end up out of work - very disappointing, draining and disheartening.

The only other time was in 2002 when it happened to my wife. We were in Portland, OR at the time and she went from being a national accounts manager flying all over the country for FAO Schwartz's parent company to out of work with no prospects just like that. Took her four months to get another job and it was back in southern CA where we'd just moved from a few months prior. Like me, she's always worked (since she was 16) and hadn't really been let go.

I realize that the sample size of two is statistically insignificant, but I do tend to think based on other data that this recession and the post-9/11 recession (2002-2003) were far worse than ones that preceeded them. That might've had something to do with it.

Just glad to be back working now, even if it's not quite as good as what I had before. Decent money, I have health insurance and we've got a roof over our heads. Right now I'm grateful for that. I'll work on improving the situation when the market turns around some more and I can (maybe) look at getting back to someplace a bit more interesting.

Best to you and hopefully you can stay workin' (or else get one of them winning lottery tickets!)

[azasadny]

Last night, as I was feeling sorry for myself for having to sell my 911 due to gout, my friend came over because he needed someone to talk to. He's going through a messy, expensive divorce, losing his house, family business is failing, and his parents are both dying. Someone is always worse off than you...

[stomachmonkey]

Further to what P-O-P said.

I had the pleasure of experiencing UI.

In NY if you work you are not allowed to collect UI that week.

There were a limited number of checks that you could draw.

So if I had consulting gigs that paid well I would "save" those checks for a week that I did not have income.

Well surprise. If you do not collect a certain number of weeks in a row then they assume that you got income from somewhere and they make you reapply all over again.

Knew a girl who got sent on an interview that UA set up. It was nothing that she would ever have pursued on her own. She got offered the job but declined it as nothing about it, especially the compensation, worked for her.

They canceled her UI benefits because she turned it down.

UI does not motivate one to play fair.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

I'm of the firm belief that if someone hasn't found a job after 99 weeks, they didn't want one very bad.

Probably true. However, lots don't get hired because they are "overqualified." More don't get hired because they think that they can send out resumes perpetually and a door will open. Not.
Others are in the situation POP describes.

I read in a LA Times series that some unemployed folks have gone to a "job center" every day for over a year, submitted 100's of resumes and got 2 interviews, no job.

Kinda puts a meaning on "they didn't want one very bad" just because they didn't get one. We used to employ workers that could not figure out how to balance a check book and they probably did an OK performance. We used to employ folks that weren't all that good with their finances and they too probably did OK.

Those kinds don't get jobs nowadays. It may be that they never will if they're over 50. That's just another discrimination to heap on the pile. Pretty soon you're buried.

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

I'm of the firm belief that if someone hasn't found a job after 99 weeks, they didn't want one very bad.

And Sammy, I hate to tell you that on this one you are wrong.

Got laid off in 2005 and did not find something full time until Dec of 2009. Rest of the time had to leave the country and find something elsewhere to stay alive.

Not everyone is a deadbeat, and some of us are in fields that are very difficult to find jobs in.

Joe A