How It's Done @ 1,000 Yards

[Jeff Higgins]

Here is a good video showing the target pits and their operation at a typical rifle range. Most folks don't get the chance to shoot at long range all that often, if at all. The logistics of it are far different than shooting at 100, 200 or possibly 300 yards at the typical gun club. The shorter ranges allow one to spot his own shots, as the bullet holes are readily seen at those ranges. Not so once we start shooting at longer ranges. This require a cooperative effort between a man in the pits and the man on the line.

Notice the target puller is placing two disks on the target. One goes in the actually bullet hole, the other denotes the score value of the shot. The first shot is a "10" up at 12:00, as indicated by the white disc in the bullet hole and the black one down at 6:00 on the border of the target. After a sight correction, the next shot is an "X" as indicated by the white spotter in the bullet hole and the black one in the lower left corner of the border.

The score indicator positions on the border are "5" at 9:00, "6" in the upper left corner, a miss at 12:00, "7" in the upper right corner, "8" at 3:00, "9" in the lower right corner, "10" at 6:00, and "X" in the lower left corner.

Check out the time of flight of the .50 BMG round at about 2,700-2,800 fps muzzle velocity. Our black powder rounds start out at only 1,200 or so, and drop into the 800's by 1,000 yards. You can actually fire, half cock the hammer, drop the breach block, extract the shell, and put it back in the box before the bullet impacts. Fun stuff...

[ODDJOB UNO]

always fun to be in the pits! NOT! like the railroad ties for protection. thats a damn nice range. well set up.


that 1st shot outta that .50 wasnt too damn shabby. hell i would have left the damn zero alone!

[gassy]

That's cool. Thanks for posting.

[pwd72s]

That a military range? The state shut down .50 at my rifle club...noise regulations.

[Bill Douglas]

That's quite interesting. It wasn't a very flat trajectory on the .50BMG. I wonder how a .338 Lapua would compair. A friend used to be an Army Corps (school boys who intend to join the military) and he used to work in the pits. He said it was pretty weird having bullets whistling over your head. and sometimes hitting the pole he put up to mark the targets.

[porsche4life]

The .50bmg is a fun gun to shoot....

[azasadny]

Thanks for posting this!

[id10t]

And here I've been thinking of an old laptop and a webcam to put near a target at 200 yards to see 22 holes...

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Bill Douglas

That's quite interesting. It wasn't a very flat trajectory on the .50BMG. I wonder how a .338 Lapua would compair. A friend used to be an Army Corps (school boys who intend to join the military) and he used to work in the pits. He said it was pretty weird having bullets whistling over your head. and sometimes hitting the pole he put up to mark the targets.

The .50 BMG actually shoots flatter than the .338 Lapua at long range. Muzzle velocities are about the same with their standard bullet weights, but the .50 BMG's bullets have a higher ballistic coefficient. The intent of the .338 Lapua is to have a lighter, more portable platform when less power is required. Most shots with the .50 BMG are taken at "hard" targets, not personel. The .338 Lapua is plenty as an anti-personel round at long range.

The thing I notice about these pits is the lack of a roof over the target pullers' heads. While there is no danger of getting hit by a bullet without a roof, it can still get pretty exciting when one impacts short. I've had what I swear was a full wheelbarrow full of dirt and gravel poured down over me from short rounds. The only thing keeping it off my head was the roof over it.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

The .50 BMG actually shoots flatter than the .338 Lapua at long range. Muzzle velocities are about the same with their standard bullet weights, but the .50 BMG's bullets have a higher ballistic coefficient. The intent of the .338 Lapua is to have a lighter, more portable platform when less power is required. Most shots with the .50 BMG are taken at "hard" targets, not personel. The .338 Lapua is plenty as an anti-personel round at long range.

The thing I notice about these pits is the lack of a roof over the target pullers' heads. While there is no danger of getting hit by a bullet without a roof, it can still get pretty exciting when one impacts short. I've had what I swear was a full wheelbarrow full of dirt and gravel poured down over me from short rounds. The only thing keeping it off my head was the roof over it.

Please "splain" more this ballistic coeficient thing.
Newton told me that all objects fall at the same rate (in a vacuum) regardless of mass, so both bullets should fall the exact same distance over the same time and if they have the same muzzle velocities they'd have identical rates of drop, unless one slows down quicker.
Is it that the heavier bullet maintains it's velocity longer than the lighter one?
That would make sense... ..

[masraum]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Please "splain" more this ballistic coeficient thing.
Newton told me that all objects fall at the same rate (in a vacuum) regardless of mass, so both bullets should fall the exact same distance over the same time and if they have the same muzzle velocities they'd have identical rates of drop, unless one slows down quicker.
Is it that the heavier bullet maintains it's velocity longer than the lighter one?
That would make sense... ..

bullets aren't fired in a vacuum.

golf balls have dimples for a reason, they go farther.

from wikipedia

In ballistics, the ballistic coefficient (BC) of a body is a measure of its ability to overcome air resistance in flight. It is inversely proportional to the deceleration—a high number indicates a low deceleration. BC is a function of mass, diameter, and drag coefficient. It is given by the mass of the object divided by the diameter squared that it presents to the airflow divided by a dimensionless constant i that relates to the aerodynamics of its shape. Ballistic coefficient has units of lb/in² or kg/m². Normally BCs are stated in lb/in² by gun projectiles producers without referring to this unit.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Please "splain" more this ballistic coeficient thing.
Newton told me that all objects fall at the same rate (in a vacuum) regardless of mass, so both bullets should fall the exact same distance over the same time and if they have the same muzzle velocities they'd have identical rates of drop, unless one slows down quicker.
Is it that the heavier bullet maintains it's velocity longer than the lighter one?
That would make sense... ..

You got it, Sammy. Ballistic coefficient is a variable used in the calculation of deceleration. The higher the number, the less the object decelerates.

It's kind of an inexact number, because it does vary with velocity. In other words, certain shapes have higher ballistic coefficients through certain velocity ranges than other shapes, but then the other shapes do better at other velocities. The ballistic coefficient of any given object actually varies a great deal as it decelerates. The hard number assigned for deceleration calculations is merely an "average" number over the projected range and time of flight.

BC's are calculated from the sectional density (ratio of diameter to weight) of the projectile and a "form factor" taken from tables for this purpose. A value of "1" has been arbitrarily assigned to a specific shape (it's some theoretical artillary projectile, but I can't remember much more off hand). Pretty much all small arms projectiles fall somewhere less than this theoretical "1". For example, a typical 180 grain .30 caliber hunting bullet may be down somewhere around .300. The highest numbers typically seen in sporting rifle ammunition are up to .400 to .500. Stubby little handgun bullets can go down to .100. Bullets used for long range in the .338 Lapua may go up into the .600's, with the .50 BMG exceeding that.

[Drdogface]

Jeff,
I've played that game too...Black Powder Cartridge...and it's really a hoot. I had to quit due to shoulder arthritis but had fun doing it. We would have two in the pits per target for speed of processing the hits. I started with a Ballard 45/90 but later a bunch of us went to a 38-70 which was more accurate and less prone to wind deflection. We abandoned the blow tube in favor of swabbing the bbl after each shot.

Since we were shooting BP cartridge we had no optics on the rifle...just a very good/precise Soule (ladder type) sight.

[Drdogface]

Originally Posted by ODDJOB UNO

always fun to be in the pits! NOT! like the railroad ties for protection. thats a damn nice range. well set up.

The RR ties are only a retaining wall for the full berm behind them....not unsafe at all.

[vash]

Christmas..i have an "appointment" with EP swat. they are gonna let me shoot a .50 and a Lapua. i gonna try the long shots.

[id10t]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Please "splain" more this ballistic coeficient thing.
Newton told me that all objects fall at the same rate (in a vacuum) regardless of mass, so both bullets should fall the exact same distance over the same time and if they have the same muzzle velocities they'd have identical rates of drop, unless one slows down quicker.
Is it that the heavier bullet maintains it's velocity longer than the lighter one?
That would make sense... ..

Drop - 9.8m/s^2 - not just an idea, but the law.

So they all drop at the same speed. Higher BC will enable a projectile to maintain velocity better (and be less affected by wind drift). So say you have 2 calibers, one throwing a bullet with a BC of .300 and one throwing bullet with a BC of .100, both leaving the barrel at 2000 FPS. The bullet with the higher BC will retain more of its velocity, so it will shoot flatter.

But they all drop at 9.8m/s^2

[gtc]

That's not true. That's just the gravitational acceleration. Wind resistance will also affect the rate at which they fall.
The difference between two different bullets may be small, or even immeasurable, but there is still a difference.

[Jeff Higgins]

Strange things happen with exterior ballistics. Much of it is a bit unpredictable. For instance, when dealing with bullet drop, the one variable most difficult to account for is lift. Some bullet shapes, at some velocities, actually pitch up, creating a high pressure zone right under the nose and a low pressure zone right above it, generating lift. Artillery ballisticians lose a great deal of sleep over this one; they need their projectiles to "tip over" at their apogee so that the nose hits first. That's where the detonator lives. Some bullet designs, at some velocities, never "tip over", and kind of "kite" after their apogees, essentially landing like an airliner, nose high. When the tip strikes first (like on a more or less vertical target), this leads to all kinds of wild tumbling, which is what the military would like to see in its anti-personnel rounds. The difference in trajectory between otherwise similar projectiles at similar velocities, the only difference being one "tips over" and the other does not is significant.

To make things even more interesting, bullets will appear to "roll" in the direction of the rifling. A right hand twist barrel will appear to "roll" bullets to the right, where a left hand twist barrel will appear to "roll" them the other way. The reason for this is that the pitch up will also have a bit of a horizontal component, or yaw, induced by the spinning bullet. RH twists will yaw the bullet right, creating a high pressure area on the left side of the nose, and a low pressure area on the right, drawing the bullet into that low pressure area.

And yes, while acceleration is constant in a vacuum, there will always be a whole lotta air between you and a 1,000 yard target. Therein lies the challenge...

[Drdogface]

Jeff

We always looked for and hoped for round holes in the target. Bullets that don't tip over leave oval looking holes. That was one advantage of our Paul Jones mould cast 38-70 bullet. This bullet also had narrow and shallow grease grooves which aided the ballistics greatly....nice round holes punched in the paper. Perhaps you have heard of Dan Theodore...he designed that bullet and many others which are proven winners.

After working the pits a while you could really almost call the score by looking at where the bullet hit the berm behind the target....fun stuff.

[ODDJOB UNO]

heres the real score for long range shooting. either yer GOOD or your going to be very DEAD if yer playing war.


generally NOBODY likes a sniper. they are very pesky and demoralizzzzzz-ing. and it HURTS ALOT!


granted technology has done alot for long range shootin, but after watching the COUNTLESS sniper shows, since now each squad demands a DM(designated marksmen-hint every marine is a DM), i have come to the conclusion with all the lap top crap/calculators/note pads blah blah that once again we have taken something and COMPLETELY BEFOULED the entire process to the point of NOT getting the shot off SOON ENOUGH to change the course of battle.


heres what ya need and yeah im old school, so feeking what..............



1) quality weapon .308,.300 win mag, .30.06, .338 win mag or lapua, .50

2) pair quality binos

3) quality range finder to 1200 yds, spendy if for a 50 cal as obviously it goes farther downrange. this is the only techno part to come along for years

4) quality optic w/target knobs 1/4 MOA increments

5) quality federal ammo

6) your come ups plastered on inside of butt stock

7) a damn good understanding of your ballistics with that particular round

8) a damn good understanding of wind at range

9) a hell of alot of ammo to practice



now.....................since the civil war what has really changed for snipers. not a hell of alot except quality optics. how bout since wwi? or wwii ? or vietnam? yep the only thing is the laser(lazer) range finder. yeah sure we have gone from a mini ball to a boat tail hollow point.........more efficient.



so with that in mind, and knowing something about SHOOT AND SCOOT, cuz when ya shoot ya better scoot cuz the enemy is gonna rain hell onto your position, why in hells name do we train GI's to go thru all these calculations,carry all this laptop crap, to the point that many sniper rifles are NOT coming with iron sights as backups in the event of scope failure. and yes they DO FAIL ask me how i know.


so what we are creating is a shooter that relies on technology and as any of us old farts know technology WILL always fail when ya need it most.


thats my gripe, most cant shoot period w/out technology.


cheese and rice we have shot countless rounds(attested by wooden ammo cases of empty brass) over the years IRON SIGHTED and thats how snipers should be trained in MY MORE THAN HUMBLE OPINION! but WTF do i know?


i KNOW i can hit a 1000yds IRON SIGHTED! all day every day and night windy rainey snowy. because thats how we roll and thats how we were taught.


there NEVER WILL BE A SPOON I OWN W/AN OPTIC WITHOUT IRON SIGHTS as a backup!


on a brand new remington custom shop model 700 or 7 YOU have to SPECIAL ORDER IRON SIGHTS NOW! same with any custom rifle mfg.


now let me ask you this????????? why do african dangerous game rifles come with IRON SIGHTS????????