Question About De-Tuning CAT Standby Generators

[Rick V]

CPN conversion?

[Hugh R]

Cpn?

[Rick V]

Compressed Natural Gas

[Hugh R]

Would that work with a diesel engine?

[Rick V]

I'm trying to find a conversion, and not having much luck, but would bio-diesel give you an exemption?
Now that I think of it, I think CPN is for gas conversions

[silverc4s]

Keep in mind that Kalifornia has declared war on all fossil fueled vehicles, power generating equipment, and fossil fuel refining capabilities.

This kind of forward thinking is a contributing part of their current fiscal situation, so my solution, as a good KA citizen, would be as follows:

Scrap those pesky diesels, and get a solar/windmill/hydrogen fuel cell generator to replace each one. The fact that there is a lot of cost involved is clearly not an issue.
Your school district will be state wide heroes of the revolution!!

[yetibone]

How 'bout a stationary bicycle driving the generator via a chain?

Put those kids to WORK! Get busy workin' off that last Happy Meal!

[Rick V]

Omnitek Diesel To Natural Gas Engine Conversion Natural Gas Engines and Hydrogen Conversion Erdgas Umruestung
Okay I stand corrected in my correction

[red-beard]

I am not poo-pooing the idea, but so you know there is a significant derating involved in Diesel to NG.

Rick, that looks like a very good resource for the future. Saved.

[Hugh R]

Interesting find Rick. Thanks, but when it comes to rebuilding the engine for the lower compression ratio, and CNG fuel tanks, etc. It's probably cheaper to put in the p-traps. I'll talk to Cummins tomorrow and report what they say.

[juan ruiz]

California, is a nightmare for Generators all of the power plants that we are installing are subject to rigorous emission tests even the ones running in Natural Gas, we now have a dual fuel engines jut because of this subject.

Regarding your question, the X engine was chosen to produce X amount of power at X time, the Generator needs X engine output to be able to constantly run at a certain speed, those small engines usually run 1200 to 1800 RPM, if the power goes out and the entire load is dumped into the generator ( as much as it can take it) the engine needs all the power to be able to carry the Generator demand.

You may be able to limit the amount of fuel via the fuel pump but then the engine will not have the power to carry the entire load, if they are testing from start up regardless of what you do the numbers may be bad.

Maybe they sell an aftermarket system, something like Ammonia injected into the exhaust gases which is common to lower and deal with this problem, (sample below)

http://www.energy.iastate.edu/Renewable/ammonia/ammonia/2008/Kong_2008.pdf

Please let us know what alternatives the engine manufacture offers you

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by juan ruiz

California, is a nightmare for Generators all of the power plants that we are installing are subject to rigorous emission tests even the ones running in Natural Gas, we now have a dual fuel engines jut because of this subject.

Regarding your question, the X engine was chosen to produce X amount of power at X time, the Generator needs X engine output to be able to constantly run at a certain speed, those small engines usually run 1200 to 1800 RPM, if the power goes out and the entire load is dumped into the generator ( as much as it can take it) the engine needs all the power to be able to carry the Generator demand.

You may be able to limit the amount of fuel via the fuel pump but then the engine will not have the power to carry the entire load, if they are testing from start up regardless of what you do the numbers may be bad.

Maybe they sell an aftermarket system, something like Ammonia injected into the exhaust gases which is common to lower and deal with this problem, (sample below)

http://www.energy.iastate.edu/Renewable/ammonia/ammonia/2008/Kong_2008.pdf

Please let us know what alternatives the engine manufacture offers you

The problem that CARB is trying to solve is Diesel Soot particulates. If the engine is running properly and loaded up, it shouldn't be producing soot.

It's funny, but one of the issues we had with the EPA back in the 1990's was particulates. We had cases where the PM10 and PM2.5 of the air was worse than the exhuast of the gas Turbines. We were essentially cleaning the air. But the EPA test didn't take into account particulates passing through the air filters. Anything making it past the filters was counted in the exhuast, like it was produced by the GT. It took a long time to get them to see this as a non issue.

This is the problem. These arbitrary numbers drive behavior. It is cheaper to have 2 x 40hp generators than 1 80hp unit, solely because of the regulation. And these are STANDBY units which shouldn't run.

Hugh, if they are going to end up selling the Units, I would suggest switching to piped Natural Gas units.

[juan ruiz]

If the problem is Diesel Soot particulates. then they need to look over the fuel system, things like fuel pump, injectors fix those then bring a portable load bank and run it for 24 hours under full load and I'm sure that will cure the problem, chances are that generator has never seen full load for a very long period.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by juan ruiz

If the problem is Diesel Soot particulates. then they need to look over the fuel system, things like fuel pump, injectors fix those then bring a portable load bank and run it for 24 hours under full load and I'm sure that will cure the problem, chances are that generator has never seen full load for a very long period.

Juan, there is nothing wrong with the equipment. It is all working fine, as far as I know. It is a change in LEGISLATION that any equipment operating in the State of California 50 hp or more must have the particulate exhuast filters installed. No grandfather clause. Hugh is looking to help his wife find the most cost effective solution for these Standby Generators for the schools.

The prices being quoted seem outrageous.

[Hugh R]

Rule 1170 of the SCAQMD (AQMD.gov) requires the p-traps for any generator permitted before a certain date that didn't have them. After that date, you can't get a permit without the traps. This rule applies to standby generators within 100 meters of any K-12 school. Doesn't matter if it meets a PM 2.5 or PM10 emissions standard or not, it's simply required.

My wife is the purchasing agent for this very, very small elementary school district, and $50,000 to them is a big deal. They wanted to replace their one 10 year old stake bed truck and they had to cut some other services to pay for that.

[sammyg2]

Diesels are throttled with fuel, not air.
Reduce the fuel, reduce the power.

We deal with this issue every single day where I work.
Just take out your wallet and throw it to them, along with your PIN number.
That'll keep em off your butt for a week.

[gtc]

I work for a CAT generator dealer. We can and do occasionally raise or lower the rating of an engine for a customer. This is usually done when someone buys a used genset or industrial engine and needs more or less power. Unfortunately I am not familiar with the cummins or deere model lines so I can't be too much help.
Your dealers may very well be able to detune your engines. I am sure they have been dealing with the new emissions issues all year, just like we have.

Just to clear the air a bit and settle a few things:
-Yes, the new emissions equipment is hideously expensive. It is adding about 40% to the cost of our 2011 generator sets.
-You do not want to run your engines at partial load for an extended period of time. They will 'slobber' and actually run much dirtier than if you ran them at full load. This is what loadbanks are used for... when you only have one 75W lightbulb turned on, the loadbank dissipates the remaining 19,925 watts.
Of course, you do not always need to run them at 100% load. But I would guess cummins and deere want you to run at 50% or more.
-If you want to be sneaky, you might try getting the gensets changed to prime rating. Prime units run more hours per year at a lower rating, so if you have 100kW Standby units, they would be 90kW when run as Prime power. But I doubt that will pass anybody's sniff test in commiefornia.

My professional recommendation would be to sell those junky units and head over to Quinn for some quality equipment. (sorry... couldn't resist)

[gtc]

Do they need all four units at one location? I am guessing they are 15-20kW units, so would one 80kw unit suffice?
I think you should be able to sell those four units and buy one compliant 80kw unit for a lot less than if you were to retrofit all four small units. Also your maintenance costs would be less, I imagine.

Just a thought.

[gtc]

Also, I have heard of some ridiculous subsidies for upgrading to Tier 4 equipment in CA. We are repowering some boats down there in Long Beach, and I think you folks (CA taxpayers) are picking up half of the tab.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by gtc

Do they need all four units at one location? I am guessing they are 15-20kW units, so would one 80kw unit suffice?
I think you should be able to sell those four units and buy one compliant 80kw unit for a lot less than if you were to retrofit all four small units. Also your maintenance costs would be less, I imagine.

Just a thought.

These are 45-60 kW units. I think they are at separate locations.