New retro spoon

HardDrive · 11-26-2010, 02:58 PM

T/C Hawken .50 cal. Looked at the Cabelas brand rifles and Lyman. No comparison. T/C was clearly superior quality. The sights that came on the other offerings were laughable. Breaking it in with some Hornady .490 swaged balls. I did pick up some Powerbelt lead (non jacketed) bullets to experiment with. Pyrodex FFG powder.

Jeff Higgins · 11-26-2010, 03:19 PM

Excellent choice.

What are these Powerbelt bullets? I can highly recommend the T/C Maxi-Ball as one of the best bullets available for these rifles. Load one over 100 grains of FFg in that .50 caliber, and the white tails are in big trouble. Very accurate and hard hitting bullet.

HardDrive · 11-26-2010, 05:05 PM

These are the bullets:

Pure Lead Series Bullets

I got the pure lead 295gr. The plastic backing acts as your patch. Not sure the 1:48 twist will be enough to keep them stable, but I guessing it will with the right charge. Hell of a time to get started. I'm going to be in the woods in MI next Friday morning. I'm going to hit the range tomorrow morning in Bothell.

Jeff Higgins · 11-26-2010, 06:05 PM

Hmmm... You are up against the steepest learning curve in the firearms world, and hindered with time constraints that will make this all the more challenging for you. Let me tell you what I would do (and why), for what it's worth.

Forget about those bullets. They don't carry any lubrication whatsoever. No lube + black powder or Pyrodex = very poor shooting and an inability to reload a dirty bore in very few rounds, if not after the very first round.

The lubricant in black powder (I'll use that term for brevity - just assume I'm including Pyrodex and other substitutes when I say it) serves two purposes. First and foremost is to keep the fouling soft; preventing leading is a secondary function. The vaporized lube mixes with the powder fouling left in the bore to keep it soft enough to push the next bullet down bore. Without lube, you will get no more than a couple of shots without swabbing the bore. The fouling will build that quickly, preventing the next bullet from going down bore, much less shooting accurately if you do manage to hammer it down.

That slow 1:48 twist will have no trouble stabilizing a 295 grain bullet in .50 caliber. That is actually extremely light for this caliber. Slower twists stabilize lighter bullets quite well, with the extreme being something like my .50 flintlock round ball rifle with its 1:72" twist. Longer, heavier bullets demand a faster twist. The 1:48 of the T/C is actually optimized for their 375 grain Maxi-Ball, which it shoots exceedingly well.

That Maxi-Ball carries a lot of lube. I cannot overstate the importance of that. It is a very accurate bullet, and it's shape makes for fantastic terminal ballistics. It has a very sharp front shoulder that will cut, rather than punch a hole. You will note is has no "patch", which is actually a misnomer on the Powerbelt, where the plastic cup serves as a gas check, not a "patch". We do not patch bullets in muzzle loaders, we patch round balls. Huge difference. We actually want the plain lead base of the bullet exposed to the black powder upon ignition, so that the bullet obturates and fills the bore and rifling. This plastic gas check will keep it from doing that, resulting in leading and inaccuracy.

Anyway, if it were me, I would buy some T/C Maxi-Balls on the way to the range tomorrow. Shoot them alongside the Powerbelts and see which is easier to keep loading and is more accurate. I would load 100 grains of your Pyrodex FFg under either. Light loads with heavy, plain based bullets do not work in muzzle loaders. You really have to kick them in the ass to get them to obturate, which is critical to accuracy. Don't be shy - load it up. Wear a recoil pad.

If nothing else, hunt with the .490" round ball over 100 grains of powder. Patch it with .015 thick prelubed patches. I guarantee you will not find a more accurate load for that rifle. That, and round balls have been killing white tails for literally hundreds of years. They work.

tabs · 11-26-2010, 11:54 PM

All of the outa box muzzle loaders are more or less funcitional beginners guns. This weekend I have been seeing some very nice Lyman and TC Hawkens go in the $80 hammer price range at auction.

I DEFER TO HIGGINS AND TO RPKESQ when it come to shooting and ballasitcs. they have forgotten more than I will ever know.

I would suggest that you buy a USED copy of Ned Roberts The Muzzle Loading Caplock Rifle it is chock full of info, and more than that it takes you back to the day when that form of rifle was used for some mighty fine shooting at 220 yards. It is a great book for a cold winters night that harkens back to the day. It shows how these old originals were made and lists some of the finest craftsman who ever made an American rifle. It should set you back abut $35.00. I can't say enough.

Some of the old timers I have been around say that your first shot is not going to be the best, and the ones after you swab out the barrel will not be the best either. So you do want to use a Lube on the patch and if using a Maxi style bullet it best Lubed. It keeps fouling down andf makes for ease of loading subsequent shots.

What you can use on the cheap is Automobile Water Pump Lubricant which is water soulable oil. You can buy this type of Lubricant for jacked up prices from Black Powder suppliers if ya like. Moose Milk is a familar brand name. I use it to lube patches on Round Ball and swab out the barrel and before I head on home from the range I usually swab out the barrel real good to ease cleaning when I get home.

For me I started out with these old muzzle stuffers and these spoons have a special place in my heart. I still have my first TC Hawken in 45 caliber. I think itis real easy to get bitten by the bug of shjooting these type of guns. They are a lot of fun, its a relaxing type of shooting and you might just shoot 25 or 30 rounds in an afternoon at the range. So ya are not going to be out shooting off a coupla hundred rounds in quick order. And if you get good at it you can equal just about any modern cartridge for accuracy.

Old Sgt Alvin York cut his teeth on this type of rifle back in the day and continued to use this type of rifle till the day he died.

Joeaksa · 11-27-2010, 06:53 AM

Nice find. Hard to beat a good old Hawken...

on2wheels52 · on2wheels52's Garage

'This weekend I have been seeing some very nice Lyman and TC Hawkens go in the $80 hammer price range at auction."

I'd take a few minty $80 TC's, they wholesale for $642.
Jim

HardDrive · 11-27-2010, 09:22 AM

I bought new. I like the idea of keeping US gun makers in business. Because I'm new to Muzzleloaders, I also wanted the gun to be a 'known'.

HardDrive · 11-27-2010, 05:43 PM

I don't think I have had that much fun shooting since the day I bought my Sig Saurer. 3 Hours at the range in Kenmore. So much damn fun. You work for every shot, that for sure

I can't hit crap, but its the sights holding me back(Tis a sorry man that blames his equipment). I'm either going to mod them or get new ones.

Jeff Higgins · 11-27-2010, 07:05 PM

What load were you shooting?

Bench technique is exceedingly important with the muzzle loader. There is both a great deal of barrel time compared to a modern, high velocity arm, and a great deal of recoil to boot. This combination demands a certain technique that may be far different than how you normally shoot the old bolt gun.

Most modern rifle shooters rest the forearm on a sandbag, the toe of the stock on a sandbag, and use the left hand (for right handers) to grab that rear bag and squeeze it to affect elevation. This does not work with the muzzle loader (or any relatively low velocity, heavy recoiling rifle). One must grab that forearm, placing the hand between it and the forward sandbag in order to gain some measure of control and consistency. Left to recoil freely, the forearm simply jumps too much and too inconsistently while the bullet is still in the barrel.

The sights supplied by T/C on their "Hawken" are just about the best damn open sights supplied with any rifle today. Believe me, these sights will never hold anyone back. Don't blame these sights - work on your technique and your load. You simply don't have time to be dicking around with the sights.

Success can come slowly with these rifles; I've seen experienced hands (myself included) put months of effort into finding the right load. Far more effort than working up a load for some modern centerfires, as a matter of fact. Like I said before, you are on the steepest learning curve in the firearms world.

Tabby mentions Ned Robert's book. This is considered mandatory reading for the budding muzzle loader shooter. More mandatory reading is Sam Fadala's The Complete Black Powder Handbook, Toby Bridge's Muzzle Loader's Guide, and the Lyman Black Powder Handbook. There is just so much to all of this, so many subtleties beyond basics like powder and projectile selection. These rifles "talk" to you, and if you do not understand the language, you will have little chance of success. They will tell you what they need, but you have to pay attention and understand what you are seeing. This reading list will help, but nothing replaces experience with your rifle.

Of course, you do not have the time for any of that. Your back is up against the wall. What do you have, four days? You would be doing well to get this sorted even if you spend each and every one of those four days at the range. So, tell us what you have tried already, how bad it shot, all of it - how often did you swab the bore and with what, how much seating pressure you used, which caps, everything. Maybe we can make some recommendations from there.

Flieger · Flieger's Garage

Forgive me, but I was very perplexed by the title of the thread only to open it and find firearms. Why is a muzzle loading rifle called a spoon?

slodave · slodave's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flieger

Forgive me, but I was very perplexed by the title of the thread only to open it and find firearms. Why is a muzzle loading rifle called a spoon?

Because some people seem to think that the big eye in the sky are watching and will come take their toys away, so they nicknamed them "spoons". You know, to try and throw them off track.

Flieger · Flieger's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by slodave

Because some people seem to think that the big eye in the sky are watching and will come take their toys away, so they nicknamed them "spoons". You know, to try and throw them off track.

Ah, gotcha. I did not think of that. There is a range off Route 1/PCH just a few miles towards Morro Bay from campus. I rode my bicycle past there one day. Felt interesting.

HardDrive · 11-27-2010, 09:07 PM

Just to be clear, I call them spoons only because its tradition on PPOT. I'm also perfectly happy talking about my Norinco MAK90 AK47-ish spoon.

Jim Bremner · 11-27-2010, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flieger

Ah, gotcha. I did not think of that. There is a range off Route 1/PCH just a few miles towards Morro Bay from campus. I rode my bicycle past there one day. Felt interesting.

That's a NICE range! I visit SLO about 10 times a year.

I try to find some early morning time to visit that range!

Seahawk · 11-28-2010, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Tabby mentions Ned Robert's book. This is considered mandatory reading for the budding muzzle loader shooter. More mandatory reading is Sam Fadala's The Complete Black Powder Handbook, Toby Bridge's Muzzle Loader's Guide, and the Lyman Black Powder Handbook. There is just so much to all of this, so many subtleties beyond basics like powder and projectile selection. These rifles "talk" to you, and if you do not understand the language, you will have little chance of success. They will tell you what they need, but you have to pay attention and understand what you are seeing. This reading list will help, but nothing replaces experience with your rifle.

This is a very timely thread. My son, who had taken two deer this year, really loves to hunt and was complaining about being "shotgun limited" here in Maryland. The black power seasons are earlier in the year and longer.

So, after doing some homework I got him an entry level CVA Wolf for Christmas.

Wolf 209 Magnum Break-Action:: CVA

Which of the books would you recommend he read fist? I'd like to order for XMAS. We have plenty of time to get up to speed before I'll let him hunt with it.

Thanks.

Jeff Higgins · 11-28-2010, 09:14 AM

Sam Fadala's and Toby Bridges' books are the most current, Paul. Ned Roberts' was written a couple of generations ago, so while providing great reading and a classic, historical perspective, it won't include any modern developments. The Lyman books kind of bridges the gap between Roberts' work and Fadala's and Bridges'.

Make sure you check your state's muzzle loader regulations to be sure that rifle is legal. Not everything sold these days is legal in every state. For example, that rifle would not be legal here in Washington on at least two counts - the 209 shotgun primer ignition and the closed breach. Our rules stipulate traditional caps exposed to the elements. That, and nominal bore diameter lead projectiles - saboted handgun bullets are illegal to hunt with here in Washington. These rules are all over the map, varying widely from state to state.

HardDrive · 11-28-2010, 09:36 AM

I was just reading about the debate over the use of scopes with BP rifles in WA. While I can appreciate the desire to keep the BP season reserved for traditional guns, I think killing ethically is more important.

Seahawk · 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Make sure you check your state's muzzle loader regulations to be sure that rifle is legal. Not everything sold these days is legal in every state.

Thanks re: the books, I ordered both.

I did check on the legality...we're good. The Amish and Mennonites ensure that since they are only allowed to use black powder by their communities.

Check out the section on breech loading rifles:

Breech-loading rifles may not be used to hunt deer in Anne Arundel, Baltimore, Calvert, Caroline, Charles, Frederick (in that portion of Frederick County lying south of a line beginning at the Washington/Frederick County line at US Rt. 40 and continuing on Rt. 40 east to Harmony Road, proceeding south on Harmony Road to I-70, following I-70 east through Frederick County), Harford, Howard, Kent, Montgomery, Prince George’s, Queen Anne’s, St. Mary’s and Talbot Counties or in Worcester County as follows: (1) within one mile of any school, (2) within that portion of South Point lying south of a line beginning at the west end of the Sinepuxent Bay Bridge on State Rt. 611, then by and with the south side of Rt. 611 to the junction of the South Point Road going south for a distance of .6 miles to a point opposite the southern boundary of the Ocean City Golf and Yacht Club property on the west side of the road, then by the southern boundary of the Ocean City Golf and Yacht Club to Trappe Creek and (3) within that portion of the land lying south of a line beginning at the mouth of the St. Martin River northwest to the junction with Shingle Landing Road, then by and with the south side of Shingle Landing Road to the junction with State Rt. 113, then by and with the east side of Rt. 113 to the junction with Rt. 589, then by and with the east side of Rt. 589 to the junction with US Rt. 50, then by and with the north side of Rt. 50 to the junction with Assawoman Bay, then by and with the west boundary of Assawoman Bay to the junction with the St. Martin River.

Jeff Higgins · 11-28-2010, 12:01 PM

That's funny, I've hunted a bit in Wisconsin (both kids were in school there). The places we hunt have pretty good Amish and/or Mennonite populations (I'm afraid I can't tell the difference). The ones I've met hunt with shotguns were they have to, and normal centerfires where they can. The biggest buck I ever saw in Wisconsin was killed by a young man driving his horse drawn buggy, with his traditional clothing and beard. Nice guy, too. He knew an awful lot about his Model '94, and which .30-30 loads he liked best for deer.

I'm glad you are good to go with the Wolf 209. I've heard good things about that rifle. Now the kid will have some very informative and entertaining reading to get him through the winter, and properly prepared for next season as well. There is a lot more to this than meets the eye, which is, of course, a good deal of the fun.

HardDrive, if you cannot get something worked out that is 100% accurate and reliable before you take the field with it, it would be less than ethical to do so. How about your dad? Has he had any experience with muzzle loaders? If so, maybe he can help you when you get there, before you guys go out. If not, and he is struggling like you, you guys should wait a year and get these things figured out.