Nor will allowing the majority of the citizenry to carry concealed weapons.

That's already the law in AZ. No permit necessary for non-prohibited possessors to carry here. Didn't make a difference yesterday. But it hasn't increased crime one iota anywhere it's been implemented.

So what happened there Rick? (And nutjob)? I thought that you guys were always preaching about how everyone packing in the supermarket or shopping mall could/would stop a mass murderer by dropping him with a perfect shot in the middle of the mayhem(?) And aren't half the people in AZ. just carrying a pistol in a holster on their belt, Rowdy Gaines style?

Sounds like the whole "armed shoppers make everyone safer" argument took a schit here. And I'm not convinced that having another idiot spraying bullets in the supermarket would have improved things. HTF would a 3rd or 4th stranger with their gun have known who the "bad guy" was when they turn their head at the sound of gunfire and see some random guy shooting at someone else? Then of course Mr. "goodguy" has to shoot back at "goodguy" #3 because the SOB is trying to kill him, etc., etc...

I'm not denying that there are some limited situations where an armed citizen could flip the script on a criminal murderer but the odds are 1000 times better inside of your own house. Once you get out to the supermarket, all bets are off. And the chances for an *all idiot* shootout jump like crazy. When some determined killer pulls a gun with 20 or 30(?) rounds and begins firing in a peaceful setting, he can kill a lot of people before anyone's brain even registers WTF just happened. It could be at Starbucks w/ four on-duty cops in the store and it would still be a blood-bath.

This is a horrible tragedy and unfortunately for 2nd amendment supporters, (including me), perception is reality when it comes to public sentiment. AZ. is considered to be the land of the gun nut by a lot of people and there will probably be new federal legislation making it harder to purchase a gun. I would not object to stricter screening for mental heath issues but that would mean no guns for a lot of people who post here regularly.

Not understanding your logic here. What do you think we should do? Eliminate all laws? Stop enforcing them because, hey, no one obeys them anyways? You've opened quite a can of WTF with this one(?) :confused:

Speeder presents a hypothetical to support his position but rejects a hypothetical that refudiates his position.

Really now??

So if I want to blow-your house up with a nuke or kill someone a little more artistically with an RPG, I can do that in the near future even though I can't get those weapons due to some pesky laws? No amount of hell or high water is going to help me know where on earth to buy a fking RPG. I wouldn't know where to start looking.

What if I just really need to kill a room full of people quickly. I need some C4 or a ballistic missile and a way to launch it. No problem, right? After all, I'm "determined". :rolleyes:

And save all of the knee-jerk gun rights responses. I'm in favor of gun rights but unless the arguments for gun owners' rights get a lot better than this, we're doomed...

"No criminal is going to obey/care/follow any gun law anyways..." NEWSFLASH: He wasn't a criminal. He probably had squeaky clean record up until yesterday, just like every post office or office cubicle murderer who's ever bought a gun on Friday and killed all of his co-workers on Wednesday.

You're going to have to do better than that, Sparky. You're up against the better-educated half of the country. Or at least the half more likely to have taken a logic course in college on their way to a worthless philosophy degree or something. :)

A little exposition please, Yoda.

Denis we're talking about handguns. They have been commonplace in this country forever.

Trying to rid the country of guns will be as difficult as getting rid of coffee mugs.

the other thing is the laws are never perfect. He probably was squeaky clean but just now demonstrated his intentions. He had been granted responsibility and a choice and blew it. It's just too bad he did not try to rob a liquor store first and got caught.

So is life...

rjp

Randy,

Agree on all of your points. I'm simply addressing all of the extremely weak, typical pro-gun arguments that one hears after a slaughter like this one. It's like these guys checked their brains at the door and swallowed a tape-recorder or something...

This thread has evolved into a gun rights discussion. What happened to a society that allows/promotes ***** like this to happen? Maybe we should be discussing that instead of the possibility of taking away our weapons.

Sherwood

He was/is a crazy. Another in the long line of crazy mass shooters. He chose a political event, others chose shopping malls, schools, post offices, workplaces, etc. I do not see a lot that is new or unique about this.

I do not think the CCW'ing in AZ made a difference, because in even the most gun-loving state, only a very small minority of people will actually carry.

AZ population is 6.5MM vs only about 161K CCW permits issued, that is 2%. How many people with permits actually carry all the time, not just at night or when going somewhere dodgy? Maybe 20%? Now, of those who are carrying, how many will actually react fast enough and shoot straight enough to make a difference? 30% seems optimistic. 2% x 20% x 30% = 1/10 of 1%.

As a crazy gunman, your chances of being stopped by a CCW'ing citizen are probably about the same has your chances of being stopped by a car breakdown or random traffic police stop on your way to kill.

AZ now allows CCW without any permit or classes or background check, will that change things? I kind of doubt it. The barriers to getting an AZ CCW permit were pretty low anyway (background check, a class, a small fee). Even if the number of people who carry goes up by 5X - 4/5's of whom aren't required to have any training - that takes the chance of a CCW'er stopping a crazy to, wow, 1/2 of 1%.

I just don't think that CCW laws have much to do with stopping this sort of crazy killer shooter, one way or the other.

There are a lot of unbalanced, extremely angry people out there. What more is there to say??

"A society that allows..."?? What are you smoking? :confused:

You haven't addressed them at all. I've never said I carried so I could be the hero and stop some mass murderer. That's the last thing I'd do. Unarmed people are responsible for themselves. I carry to protect myself and my loved ones, no one else. And you're right. An armed citizen on the scene might not have been able to figure out what was going on in time to stop the mayhem. But as far as we know, the only armed citizen on the scene arrived too late. Pima County is not exactly a hotbed of pro-gun sentiment. I'd not risk certain financial ruin and a likely jail sentence (you should read up on Pima's DA) to defend a bunch of strangers. Their DA has put people in jail for justifiably shooting bad guys in defense of their own lives. All I know is that I would not have been standing around, hoping the guy ran out of ammo before he walked up to me and fired. I'd have gotten the hell out of there as soon as I heard the first shot. Now, if I were totally alone, unable to get out of the area, knew what was going on AND had a clean shot, I might have taken action. Parking lots are not good places for gunplay. But again, there have been plenty of police shootouts with hundreds of rounds fired where no one was hit and everyone was aiming.

If you have any suggestions on how to stop a madman other than waiting for him to run out of ammo or for the cops to arrive, I'm all ears.

Once again, no permit is needed for CCW in AZ. Every non-prohibited possessor above age 18 can carry concealed or openly here.

Denis, my point is if someone wants to do something no law is going to stop them.

Creating a law will only make other wise honest law abiding citizens defenseless and criminals. The carry laws that Rick and OJU speak of isn't going to stop someone like this from achieving their objective. From what OJU posted only one person showed up carrying and apparently after the shooting had stopped. So your statement to Rick is inaccurate as others weren't armed. That being said I don't know that others carrying would have made a difference and your scenario may very well have played out if someone carrying showed up to the party late.

That being said I do think that AZ having carry laws probably makes a lot of would be armed robbers think twice before entering a store because they don't know if a Rick Lee or an OJU is going to be in there and now the bad guy is in a gun fight. Robbers are opportunists. It is the element of surprise and superior fire power they want. They don't want an OJU looking into the mirror hanging from the ceiling and seeing him holding up the clerk and end up in a gun fight.

OJU doesn't show up in mirrors.

Tragic.

The 9 year old was Dallas Greens grand daughter.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/us/10green.html?_r=2&hp

Utterly senseless.

Rick- didn't say OJU was in the mirror he saw the bad guy in the mirror the bad guy didn't see him OJU doesn't show up in mirrors.

So to use your logic Denis all cars, knives, medicines, bottles, gasoline and so on should be outlawed because they have all been used as weapons? Any item that has ever been used as a weapon to injury or kill should be banned and outlawed. That's your logic

So your gonna have to do better than that because you are dealing with the other half of the country.

OK, back to OJ's comment on lack of security, this is an even bigger issue since the Congresswomens office had been vandleized and threats made, so why wasn't there better security:confused:

Is there a place on this planet where this doesn't happen? It's a human thing.

rjp