Another execution-by-police

[flatbutt]

And I'd say that Byrons example illustrates why many LEOs are on edge. So all the more reason for both sides to alter their tactics

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Of course you are correct, Byron, but this discussion is about the instances where the police do not give the "perp" any chance whatsoever to comply before shooting, or where the police used an absolutely inappropriate, over the top level of force on a non-violent offender. Quite simply put, if an innocent man winds up dead, the police f*cked up. Rather seriously.

What do you mean, he approached with something in his hand. Better the perp dead than the Police. When you the Police coming at you, drop anything in your hands, &raise them palms out.... Chris Rock nails it, choose your friends carefully, that can be the difference between a ticket, ass-whipping or death....

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Racerbvd

What do you mean, he approached with something in his hand. Better the perp dead than the Police. When you the Police coming at you, drop anything in your hands, &raise them palms out.... Chris Rock nails it, choose your friends carefully, that can be the difference between a ticket, ass-whipping or death....

The "perp" - which he really was not, was an innocent man - was given no chance to see who had just busted in through his front door, much less comply with any orders. We have covered all of this already.

[sc_rufctr]

It does ring true. Excellent video.

Originally Posted by Racerbvd

Ever wonder why Cops react they way they do???


You don't want to get shot by the law, don't hang out with meth heads & gang bangers...
This rings very true..
Chris Rock - How not to get your ass kicked by the police!

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

The "perp" - which he really was not, was an innocent man - was given no chance to see who had just busted in through his front door, much less comply with any orders. We have covered all of this already.

Actually what the "Perp, Victim, Suspect" could have done is not picked up that golf club when he heard the police approaching the house yelling "Warrant".
I think it's reasonable to think that he knew who was approaching the house.

You have to ask yourself. What was he thinking? Was he sober or was he high on something?

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Actually what the "Perp, Victim, Suspect" could have done is not picked up that golf club when he heard the police approaching the house yelling "Warrant".
I think it's reasonable to think that he knew who was approaching the house.

You have to ask yourself. What was he thinking? Was he sober or was he high on something?

We are beginning to go full circle on this.

"Reasonable to think that he knew who was approaching the house". Hmmm... The whole idea behind a middle of the night, bust through the front door raid is to catch the crook unawares. Again, we have covered this ad nauseum - could you, from a dead sleep, in five seconds or less, have made the correct series of decisions to have saved your life on this one? I couldn't. Most couldn't. If you honestly think you can, well, then, I don't think there is any point in continuing this conversation with you.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

We are beginning to go full circle on this.

"Reasonable to think that he knew who was approaching the house". Hmmm... The whole idea behind a middle of the night, bust through the front door raid is to catch the crook unawares. Again, we have covered this ad nauseum - could you, from a dead sleep, in five seconds or less, have made the correct series of decisions to have saved your life on this one? I couldn't. Most couldn't. If you honestly think you can, well, then, I don't think there is any point in continuing this conversation with you.

But then again, we don't hang out or live with known drug dealers & gang bangers do we.... We make choices in our lives, he made the wrong choice long before the police busted his door down..

This is not the way to greet Police....

[sc_rufctr]

Jeff

You're making a lot of assumptions in your last post.

Yes it is reasonable to expect that the "perp" knew who was approaching the house.
The element of surprise was over as soon as the cops yelled "Warrant"...

could you, from a dead sleep, in five seconds or less, have made the correct series of decisions to have saved your life on this one?

Probably not but I wouldn't have jumped out of bed, picked up a golf club and adopted the base ball bat position just before the COPS broke down the front door. You know... Those guys yelling "Warrant" as they crossed your front lawn.

I don't mind responding to you posts and I don't think it's a waste of time to do so.

[mossguy]

It looks like Peter and Jeff have reached the point of "agreeing to disagree."

Best,
Tom

[widebody911]

It seems the cops on the board are under the assumption that the 'perp' received adequate notification of the SWAT team's intent, notarized, signed in triplicate, in the 5 seconds between when the smashed in the door and they shot him.

This is something to think about for those of you who post constantly about how heavily armed and what great shots you are: it's very easy for the cops to get the wrong house; you'd bring to life your favorite phrase "from my cold, dead hands."

[Rikao4]

Peter, without my aids..
I'm really quite deaf..
don't sleep with them..
that kind of commotion..
I would have come out with a gun or two..
so I'm screwed...

or I hope they have good notes & somebody reads them..
occupant is DEAF

Rika

[widebody911]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Probably not but I wouldn't have jumped out of bed, picked up a golf club and adopted the base ball bat position just before the COPS broke down the front door. You know... Those guys yelling "Warrant" as they crossed your front lawn.

I just watched the video again; there's less than 3 seconds between several people yelling "search warrant" all at the same time and the guy getting shot. There was no yelling "Warrant" while they crossed the lawn.

[sc_rufctr]

Rika

The cops won't be busting down your door because you're not a drug dealer and nobody living in your house would be either. (A reasonable assumption IMHO)

-----------------------------------------------------------

What is difficult to understand is that this is the hardest thing the Police have to do.

Serving a "no knock" warrant is an extreme task to say the least.

The Police have to enter a house and take that house. There is no room for compromise. They have to "own" that house unconditionally.
If anybody in that house threatens that objective they have to be dealt with... Unconditionally.
Hopefully they can do that without killing that person but all to often there is no other option than to use extreme measures.

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by widebody911

I just watched the video again; there's less than 3 seconds between several people yelling "search warrant" all at the same time and the guy getting shot. There was no yelling "Warrant" while they crossed the lawn.

You're right. They yelled "search warrant" not "warrant" but was that before or after they opened the door?

[Rikao4]

they have busted down several...
'oops' wrong house...
I see both sides..
all the more reason to get it right..

Rika

[widebody911]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

You're right. They yelled "search warrant" not "warrant" but was that before or after they opened the door?

In the video, I hear (*crash*) - "Search Warrant!" - (slight pause) - BANG BANG BANG - Get down!

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by widebody911

In the video, I hear (*crash*) - "Search Warrant!" - (slight pause) - BANG BANG BANG - Get down!

I agree the (slight pause) could have been longer... (I commented on this earlier in this thread)

But I wasn't on the raid and I also wasn't the first guy through the door.

[scoe911]

Apparently, there have been 11 cops(in 5 different states) shot in last 24hrs. Its a dangerous job...for everyone involved...

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

Rika

The cops won't be busting down your door because you're not a drug dealer and nobody living in your house would be either. (A reasonable assumption IMHO)

Again, we are starting to recycle parts of this conversation. As stated earlier, in this country, serving such warrants, the cops have gotten the wrong house on occasion. They have also gotten the wrong guy in the right house. In this particular case, it was the "wrong" house, and they knew that beforehand - the cops knew their man had moved out. Yet they went anyway. And killed the wrong man. One who was not leading the kind of lifestyle that would, in anyone's wildest imagination, lead to a full-on no-knock SWAT raid.

So, in your estimation, even petty, low-level , non-violent drug dealers deserve to die in this kind of raid? Do you want to live in a country like that? I don't. This one didn't used to be one.

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

is difficult to understand is that this is the hardest thing the Police have to do.

Serving a "no knock" warrant is an extreme task to say the least.

The Police have to enter a house and take that house. There is no room for compromise. They have to "own" that house unconditionally.
If anybody in that house threatens that objective they have to be dealt with... Unconditionally.
Hopefully they can do that without killing that person but all to often there is no other option than to use extreme measures.

Agreed - extreme. And vastly over-used. That really is the point of all of this. Apparently, the police believe it is worth risking every persons' life that is inside that house for what - a petty dealer? Really? Or, as in another case mentioned in this thread (Peyton Strickland), a petty teenage thief? Really?

Again, I don't want to go back and rehash this whole thread. I've commented on all of these points already. The long and the short of it is that the police have shown they simply cannot be entrusted with this level of responsibility. I've covered most of the reasons I believe that is so already, but I've recently stumbled into a few more little bits of trivia that have further cemented my position.

The insinuation in many (most?) discussions concerning police abuse of power and authority is that a "certain kind" of guy is attracted to police work. We've all heard those arguments. But, are they true? Can they be demonstrated with evidence, statistics, facts and data? Well, it turns out they can, in spite of most departments' best efforts to keep officer disciplinary action, public complaint, misconduct and even criminal records under wraps.

In the links I posted in an earlier reply, I found some startling data. It seems that a measly 5% of police officers on the SF PD account for over 40% of their "use of force" incidents. As large as the SF PD must be, I would wager that is a statistically valid sample, and probably hold generally true for the whole of the population. So, this 5% would appear to be some kind of hot heads, eager to resort to the use of force when other officers would routinely have other answers. It seems they even wind up in positions to train rookies on the street, in spite of these records. The SF mayor was taking his own PD to task for hiding these folks, for covering for them. Interesting. "Thin blue line?"

Next up is domestic violence. It appears cops are at least two to four times as likely to abuse domestic partners (wives, kids, significant others) than the rest of us. In other words, best case is they are twice as likely. Worst case is four times as likely. Wow. And they walk among us armed, with the authority to make life and death decisions over us. They beat the hell out of people they supposedly love at a rate two to four times higher than everyone else, so how are they going to treat those they don't know?

Cops like to attribute this to stress on the job. If that were truly the case, wouldn't we see, say, air traffic controllers beating the hell out of their wives, children, nieces, nephews, grandchildren, and anyone else that got in their way? Hell, a lot of us have stressful jobs, and we manage not to beat our wives and kids when we get home.

Cops also like to attribute some of their misbehavior to the dangers of police work. Well, sorry, but police work in the U.S. doesn't even make the top ten "most dangerous jobs". It falls well behind things like construction and commercial fishing.

Most web sites that delve into these topics offer at least something in the way of psychological profiles of guys prone to these behaviors. Those profiles read very much like that "certain kind" of guy mentioned in those "bad cop" discussions. Domineering, obsessed with their own authority, cowardly, absolute need to be right all the time, general contempt for others, superiority complex, etc. All wonderful traits for a man wandering around with a badge, a gun, and the authority to use both.

We trust our police with a great deal. Most reward that trust with exemplary service. There are, however, clearly bad apples among them. The rest seem o.k. with that, covering for them at all costs. Their loyalty to one another, even the questionable among them, exceeds their loyalty to us, the citizens they serve. That has become exceedingly apparent in the case under discussion. The citizens chiming in, for the most part, are adamant that what happened is unacceptable. It seems to be those with LEO affiliations that are saying it was o.k. As such, they bolster the case that LEO's cannot be trusted with these decisions among a civilian population.

[kimlangley7]

swat team here in Fairfax county,VA killed a eye doctor who was taking sports bets on the side... the swat cowboy "accidently" shot him in the chest with his HK .45ACP.

this was a couple of years ago > lawsuit finalized and hte county to pay the victims family $2M.

the swat cowboy never charged with anything >> meaning in FFC > swat has free reign to shoot whomever they want > and the DA will give them a pass ...

Totally agree that cops today are out of control>> way too many swat cowboys looking for a "rush"...

I have two tours in Iraq and a couple of trips to Afghanistan and these cops [video] are way ove rthe top.... out of control...