What are my rights in an IRS audit?

[Rick Lee]

I haven't been audited and I think my taxes are pretty clean. But I'm just curious if the Fifth Amendment applies at all with regard to IRS audits. Can I just tell them to pound sand and come back with a warrant? I've heard of audits where the taxpayer ends up getting a refund. I had a relative show up for an appt. and the auditor wanted to go down to the parking garage to check the mileage on his car. What incentive is there to cooperate with an audit?

[RWebb]

the same incentive there is for a tiny mouse to not bite a dragon's tail

I always leave a "safety margin" - i.e. I don't deduct everything possible and I make sure I can prove anything I have to, if I ever have to.

Best thing is to make sure you never get audited - if you "win" your life has been hell for only a year or 2

But IRS has random audits - used to be called the TPCMP or something - key words are taxpayer compliance -- they just use you to be a datum in their statistical universe re how well everyone like you is complying with our voluntary tax system

you should never talk to them directly - your go between can easily say "i don't know" whereas you cannot -- and lying to the IRS investigative agent is bad juju -- BTW, I've heard they recruit really cute, non-threatening "soft" appearing women to do the interviews... people are more likely to volunteer information...

two words to know: enrolled agent

next 2 words: tax attorney

[peppy]

With the IRS I think they assume you are guilty until you prove your innocence.

My parent where audited years ago by the state of VA. When the auditor came to the house to inspect their record he wanted to take them back to Richmond to sort through them. Mom said he was welcome to stay as long as he would like, but he was not taking anything with him. He looked through things for about 2 hours and left. That was the end of their audit.

[Rick Lee]

I wouldn't lie to an auditor. But I would pretty tempted to tell him to come back with a warrant. Unless they have probable cause that a crime has been committed, I'm not sure why they'd be able to do anything except mail me letters, telling me I have to come see them or show them this or that. I'm sure most people get all scared and cooperate. I take every single deduction I can because I'd rather defend it than not take it. I don't answer my door for unexpected company and don't volunteer anything to the state. What can they legally do to me for not lifting a finger without a warrant?

[imcarthur]

Rick

You are treating it like a war when it is really a game. I was audited once by Taxation Canada. They told me to show up at their local office & bring my receipts & any substantiating documentation. The onus is on you to prove that the expenses etc are legitimate. You claimed them, so you have to be able to back them up.

Then they find something that you over-claimed or mis-claimed & you pay. The end.

Ian

[ODDJOB UNO]

rickster, when i got my "happy mail" from ogden,utah IRS inviting me to THEIR PARTY back in 1987 when i was racing off-road with my SCORE 1/2-1600 car................i about poo'd myself silly with fear. like poo just running out my azz uncontrollably!


yer rights are this:

1) you get an invitation

2) your mandated to ATTEND!

3) you get a pen/pencil/eraser/sharpener/calculator

4) you get to bring your documentation. remember "he said/she said dont git it!

5) you get to drag all of yer documentation down there.

6) you can bring yer CPA, in my case the H&R block clown who did my taxes


and thats IT!

7) you get to go in a really really really REALLY SECURE FEDERAL BUILDING with lots of funny men with big guns.

8) you get to view a larger than life picture of the current president. in my case bush sr.

9) you will be met by an auditor. they will have multiple pencils,eraser,sharpener,pen, and a calculator.

10) you get to go over every stinking receipt you submitted down to the last penny. this is kind of like the mega olympics of bean counters and all of them are gold metal winners and magna cum laude accounting graduates. maybe even doctorates in accounting.

11) in my case i got a lil navajo girl about 3'6" tall and about 4 feet wide.

12) and in the end since i am such a cheap azz and keep EVERY RECEIPT..................i didnt claim enough and the feds gave me back i think almost $1200 bucks. the H&R block clown about had heart failure along with myself, and he stated that was ONLY the 2nd TIME in his 33 years of doing taxes he has seen the IRS give a refund back for not claiming enough.


13) words to live by from me "being der/doing dat...........................keep every receipt. claim whats legit, dont cheat and pay yer taxes on time everytime even if the race is tommorrow and ya need the bucks...................pay the IRS!


they ALWAYS GET THEIR MAN!



rights? YOU dont have no stinking rights when it comes to taxes!

[Rick Lee]

Yes, I understand the accounting aspect of it. My question is - why would you go to the appointment? If the local police knocked on my door (or approached me in my garage, since I don't answer my door) for ANY reason and wanted me to come down to the station, I'd tell them to come back with a warrant. And even then, I'd sit in that room and keep my mouth shut. Why would I cooperate? No good can come of it and I'm more likely to walk free if I stay quiet. I'm under no obligation to talk to them about anything. Does the IRS have special police powers, in that I can't refuse to talk to them? Does the Fifth Amendment get suspended for IRS audits? What penalty is there for refusing to cooperate and is that even a crime?

[ODDJOB UNO]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Yes, I understand the accounting aspect of it. My question is - why would you go to the appointment? If the local police knocked on my door (or approached me in my garage, since I don't answer my door) for ANY reason and wanted me to come down to the station, I'd tell them to come back with a warrant. And even then, I'd sit in that room and keep my mouth shut. Why would I cooperate? No good can come of it and I'm more likely to walk free if I stay quiet. I'm under no obligation to talk to them about anything. Does the IRS have special police powers, in that I can't refuse to talk to them? Does the Fifth Amendment get suspended for IRS audits? What penalty is there for refusing to cooperate and is that even a crime?

man this is ser-i-azz biz here. dont give me or them "i aint gonna cooperate crap" "get a warrant". 1st damn thing their gonna do is run your background. then their gonna call on their speed dial to BATF and find out what ya have. then their gonna announce themselves at 3am while your buck nikkid with wifey and break that high dollar front door down and jerk yer azz out of there so fast it will make yer head spin!


these guys dont fool around. AT ALL!



if you get an invitation to their sponsored party YOU MUST ATTEND! or be dead 6ft under. there IS NO EXCUSES!

they will flat confiscate everything including your toilet paper, until everything is sorted out!


dicking around with them is putting YOU on their HVT (high value target) list and once on der radar......................well they are gonna watch YOU SQUIRM!


no sense in lil mouseketeer biting the dragons tail as mentioned above.


these guys play hardball BIG TIME! just ask terrible herbst gaming(vegas) what the hell the IRS did to them for their shennagins with their casinos and gas stations and off road race team. and they had(past tense) more money THAN GOD(gawd) unlike us poor working smucks!


just accept the invitation and buy a nice party hat, and bring a bwanna with a hand cart to haul all of yer documentation down there.


who knows???????????? maybe YOU TOO will get a REFUND LAK ME!

[Tobra]

They took down Capone, that is all I have to say about that.

[Rick Lee]

If they have evidence of criminal wrongdoing, then they'd have no problem getting a warrant. From the non-responses in this thread, it seems the IRS has been wildly successful in creating a mindset that taxpayers must talk to them. Maybe we must, I don't really know. Getting a letter than says I have to show at an appointment is no more a warrant or summons than a cop telling me I should let him search my car if I have nothing to hide. And unless a letter cites some federal statute that states my not showing is a prosecutable crime, I'm still wondering what legal obligation I have to help the IRS.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Tobra

They took down Capone, that is all I have to say about that.

And they had mountains of evidence of criminal wrongdoing and federal warrants. Capone didn't respond to a letter telling him to appear that their Chicago offices.

[ODDJOB UNO]

well 1st and foremost you live in the greatest country on the planet and it is yer duty as a citizen to pay yer taxes. work with me here, i didnt make this up. 2nd, if i remember correctly you have exactly so many days to respond back to their invitation.


just consider it a federal summons in drag. no different than any other summons for jury duty or any other crap.


if they suspect anything................its now YOU against them. and i know for a fact you nor your family are in the same monetary league thats herbst gaming is in. and thats in the stratosphere.


look up IRS vs. HERBST GAMING/HERBST OIL CO and start there for what kind of fun the IRS can pull on you.

[legion]

Due process doesn't seem to apply to traffic infractions or taxes.

[Rick Lee]

Again, I'm not claiming exemption from having to pay taxes. My taxes are in order. I just want to know what law compels me to cooperate with the IRS beyond submitting a truthful tax return, which I've always done anyway.

If we don't even have to pay photo radar tickets we get in the mail, I have a hard time believing a simple letter from the IRS by regular mail constitutes a summons or warrant. And since I can always refuse to talk to the police even if they have a warrant, even if they file formal charges, why would a simple letter from the IRS compel me to do anything? Seems to me it's nothing more than fishing. Why would I help them with that?

[imcarthur]

Here you go Rick: Examination of Returns, Appeal Rights, and Claims for Refund

Read the Examination of Returns section.

Ian

[imcarthur]

The pertinent line: "However, the IRS makes the final determination of when, where, and how the examination will take place."

Ian

[Jeff Higgins]

I've wondered this myself, Rick. I would think the 5th Amendment would apply to any government agency's requests for information. I know in some cases, where a citizen is taking advantage of some "privilege" granted us by the government (live obtaining a driver's license, hunting license, etc.) we explicitly give up some rights in exchange for that "privilege" (and don't even get me started on how I feel about that...). In the case of taxation, however, I don't believe they have that leverage over us.

We've all heard the urban legends about citizen heroes defying an audit. One of the best I heard was simply putting all seven years' worth of receipts in a grocery bag, shaking well, and presenting that as your "filing" system, leaving the agent to sort through it. Doubt it's true, but stories like that abound.

I think I would take your approach. Demand a warrant specifying exactly what they are looking for, and then offering no assistance in helping them find it. Then just don't say a word. Of course, it's probably one of those Catch 22's where they don't have to have evidence of any wrongdoing to seek an audit, but it is a crime to refuse to cooperate. So, in the end, with no evidence of any wrongdoing necessary to get the ball rolling, they kind of have us by the short hairs anyway.

[Jandrews]

Rick is just asking for a fact-based, rather than fear-based answer. I think he raises a good question. I don't think he is asking what he "should" do....I think he is asking what he "must" do. I don't think anyone here has provided an answer to the latter, but lots of opinions on the former.

I am interested as well in the answer, if nothing else, just to better understand our true rights to the letter of the constitution.

JA

[Rick Lee]

Ian, that section of that document does not say anywhere that you cooperate, nor does it cite any law about having to show for an appointment. If the IRS has evidence of underpayment or under-reporting, then that would be a different story. I've gotten a postcard before saying they adjusted my returns and I owe $200 more. Wasn't worth fighting over, so I paid. But getting a letter saying I had been randomly selected for an audit, where there is no evidence of wrongdoing? Why the hell would I cooperate with that? Show me evidence of wrongdoing, a warrant or a court summons and I'll pay attention. Otherwise, pound sand.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

I'm pretty sure you have a "right" to a jar of Vaseline, and that's about it.